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meeggtoast
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 159 Bounty Hunter
Lurker's section Original from my post in test shard forums
There has been a hidden buff of 8% increase in damage for Duelist Flurry / Cloud of Steel / Sly Flourish
All of my calculations does not rely on vorpal enchantments, if u see the vorpal numbers... rogue tears will flow like a river best to leave it out.
Cloud of Steel
Cloud of Steel: This power now has 8 maximum charges, down from 12.
Mostly our PvP skill, PvE used for pulls. It is debatable in PvE sly flourish vs CoS for second at-will slot.
Assuming our target is not attempting to dodge max charges.
After testing in the test shard, you are able to chuck all 8 daggers before your stealth run out.
Assuming no incremental damage from CoS:
(1.08)*8 vs 1*12
8.64 vs 12
Live server: Target will take most damage from eating all 12 daggers.
Test server: Target will take more damage from each individual dagger up to the eighth dagger.
Hidden Tip for Rogues Want to restack bleed? don't know when will it fall off? Just got ur Lurker's up again?
Chuck all 12 daggers at boss immediately after finishing the last flurry. then immediately after chucking all daggers Flurry. When your second awkward attack hits, Bleed debuff falls off.
_______________________________________________________
Duelist Flurry
Duelist's Flurry: When the bleed portion of this power is at 10 stacks, further applications now recalculate damage in addition to refreshing the duration.
With this patch your bleed keeps refreshing, depending after every flurry(pretty sure it refreshes during your flurry, every time a stacked is applied.)
Live Shard:
Average bleed:5000
Average Lurker Bleed:10750
Test Shard:
Average Bleed: 5000
Since this bleed number is fixated around an average number, no matter how you try to boost damage with lurker's ur subsequent bleedstacks will constantly overwrite the previous bleed stack thus the average bleed will remain relatively the same with or without damage buffs. skewed towards higher damage assuming using damage boosting skills such as lurker's(15% crit severity.)
Non Crit
There is a Hidden buff of 8% increase in all of our at wills.
Live: 2000+2000+10(2000(0.4))= 12000
Test: 2160+2160+10(2160(0.4))= 12960
50% Crit
Live: 2000+2.15(2000)+5(2000(0.4))+5*2.15(2000(0.4)) = 18900
Test: 2160+2.15(2160)+5(2160(0.4))+5*2.15(2160(0.4)) =20412
Overall Our base damage
____________________________________________________________
Lurkers Nerf
Lurker's Assault: This power now grants 5 / 10 / 15% bonus Crit Severity, instead of 20 / 40 / 60% bonus damage.
Mathematically speaking:
Note that Duelist flurry deals 2 hits of base damage then hits 10 times for 30-40% of the that damage. lets be generous and give us 40%. Being generous again lets give rogues 50% crit chance to make things simplier with no vorpal enchants.
Note this is without overrun critical(which provides somewhere between 10-5% of total damage depending on rogue's crit chance(its too complex to explain here, so we'll leave this out)).
Flat base Crit severity: 75%
Brutal Backstab feat: 25%(understealth)
Deadly Momentum feat: 15%(after lots of flurries)
Total: Crit severity 115% which means 215% of regular damage
I actually hit around 1800-1900.
Live: 1 Duelist Flurry(4 seconds)
Average damage per hit out of LA: 2000+2000+10(2000(0.4))= 12000
Assuming 50% crit chance: 2000+2.15(2000)+5(2000(0.4))+5*2.15(2000(0.4)) = 18900
Average damage per hit in LA:
no crit: 3200+3200+10(3200(0.4))= 19200
50% crit: 3200+2.15(3200)+5(3200(0.4))+5*2.15(3200(0.4))=30240
LA Duration:10 seconds.
Thus I can fit 2.5 Flurries(not exactly true due to awkward initial cast animations since more damage is dealt in the subsequent 2 seconds) in a lurkers. Total damage over 10 seconds is = 75600, divide that by 2 which will yield 5 seconds for 37800 damage.
Test:
Average damage per hit out of LA:
Same as in Live server except the fact that stealth runs out before flurry can finish thus you deal less damage(due to losing brutal backstab feat) in test than live. Lets ignore that and assume they deal same damage.
Assuming 50% crit chance: 2160+2.15(2160)+5(2160(0.4))+5*2.15(2160(0.4)) =20412
Average damage per hit in LA:
115% crit severity becomes 130% crit severity, which changes equation to:
2160+2.3(2160)+5(2160(0.4))+5*2.3(2160(0.4))= 21384
Since this is over the course of 5 seconds and assuming stealth does not run out(which is not true). you are able to squeeze in 1.25 flurries 1 flurry + 1 second of 4 seconds flurry. This will yield me 20412*1.25= 25515
LA Duration: 5 seconds
Live Shard, Over 10 seconds under Live Lurker's: 75600
Test Shard, Over 10 seconds 5 under Lurker's and 5 seconds without lurkers: 25515+21384= 46899.
Difference in damage= 28701
% loss from Live shard=28701/75600 = 38% loss in damage.
Second note, this does not include encounters which provides even more burst to lurker's damage. With this patch going live, its bye bye to my rogue and hello to my gwf since my sure strike will 100% out dps my rogue with or without my unstoppable and have much more utility and survivablity.
________________________________________________________________
Stealth/Our at-wills/Class Ability
Stealth: At-will powers used from stealth will now partially deplete the Stealth Meter.
This is tricky to mathematically calculate. due to the fact that stealth runs out before duelist flurry finishes. If the first 2 awkward attacks are not in stealth the 10 attacks followed up depletes the whole stealth bar. If begin the first attacks are in stealth, the stealth runs out before flurry.
Flurry damage wise, its only a slight nerf since you are not taking full 100% of the brutal backstab feat.
Survivablity wise: we wont have stealth to begin with if u want to attack(like when i first played rogue lvling and chucking pots from lvl 20-30 not realizing i had stealth)
Stealth Lasts for a total of 5 seconds. Previously we can 1 flurry + encounter to benefit from the full of the stealth + encounter. Now we cant even finish flurry before stealth finishes. So good bye encounter bonuses.
______________________________________________________________
Is Class Ability suppose to have synergy with our at-wills and our encounter's? Guardian Fighter: Block gives 2 new at-wills synergizes with their skills to tank and refill guard meter. Great Weapon Fighter: Unstoppable gives Attack speed boost to at-wills, damage reduction, temporary hp, and encounter damage bonus. Control Wizard: Spell mastery gives another encounter slot, magic missile gives arcane, spells on tab uses arcane(some spells). Devout Cleric: Divinity gives new at-wills, encounter bonus loses 1 charge when used, damage builds divinity.
And then we have:
Rogues Stealth gives us bonus encounter effects but loses stealth when used, gain 100% combat advantage for duration of it, cannot be seen by most adds.
Cons of each class ability:
Guard- limits potential aoe cleave damage potential.
Determination/Unstoppable- need to take damage(not alot lol), reduction in at-will damage
Spell Mastery- none, are u going to tell me its hard to do at-wills because your cooldowns on your encounters keep coming off because u have 4 different spells?
Divinity- anything in divine mode costs divinity.
Stealth- anything in stealth costs stealth, taking damage reduces stealth.
DC Divinity vs TR stealth
Team Benefit vs Personal Benefit
Ranged Class vs Melee Class
Support vs Striker/Damage Dealer
Medium armor class/Low Armor class
I see pure synergy in other classes with their class abilities, I do not see rogues have any sort of synergy with stealth you can pop stealth and use encounter, but what about the other 2 encounters? dc with full divinity can use all 3 encounters. everything we do reduces stealth, dcs can deal damage while in non divinity mode to gain divinity. we just have to wait and regen or use shadow strike another encounter for 5 secs of stealth thats going to run out in 5 secs if we do nothing with it.
________________________________________________________
I do understand to tone down the power of rogues in PvP. However understand that such drastic nerfs are to be even attempt to be implemented in a test server, shows that no one in the development team did any sort of arithmetic calculations on this nerf unless this such severe nerf is intended by the dev team to cripple the rogue. Even on test shard this nerf is so severe, along with the mockery of the new t2 gear from feywild module makes me more sad.
T2 gear set for rogues is: on your attacks you poison your target for 53xx damage over 15 seconds, targets cannot be internal cooldown on target of 15 secs(aka hit target deals 5k poison damage over 15 secs then next 15 secs unable to refresh debuff poison. u can apply new stack of poison after the second 15seconds)
Question is rogues have aoe skills that can benefit from this poison? Whirlwind, Blitz, stacked adds with dazing, stacked adds with wicked, pseudo aoe path of blades? If this t2 set bonus that deals 10k damage on a cw it can be understandable because they actually can make use of this damage, while single target rogues cannot.
____________________________________________________________
If you have any more questions u can mail me at:
Lanaya@meeggtoast 12.7k gwf(3k stone)
Nevermore@meeggtoast 12.2k TR(3k stone)
Dragon Shard and Test Shard
Edit: to those whom think this nerf to rogues was deserved... prepare your bottoms with lube for my gwf. Because since annoying rogues who deals no damage is dealt with by cryptic, it cleared the road for my GWF to become king of PvP and PvE, in damage, survivablity, and utility. Sadly for the rogue, they will have no real stun, no damage, no hp, no armor, a mere joke of "stealth" and fade away into oblivion...
There has been a hidden buff of 8% increase in damage for Duelist Flurry / Cloud of Steel / Sly Flourish
All of my calculations does not rely on vorpal enchantments, if u see the vorpal numbers... rogue tears will flow like a river best to leave it out.
Cloud of Steel
Cloud of Steel: This power now has 8 maximum charges, down from 12.
Mostly our PvP skill, PvE used for pulls. It is debatable in PvE sly flourish vs CoS for second at-will slot.
Assuming our target is not attempting to dodge max charges.
After testing in the test shard, you are able to chuck all 8 daggers before your stealth run out.
Assuming no incremental damage from CoS:
(1.08)*8 vs 1*12
8.64 vs 12
Live server: Target will take most damage from eating all 12 daggers.
Test server: Target will take more damage from each individual dagger up to the eighth dagger.
Hidden Tip for Rogues Want to restack bleed? don't know when will it fall off? Just got ur Lurker's up again?
Chuck all 12 daggers at boss immediately after finishing the last flurry. then immediately after chucking all daggers Flurry. When your second awkward attack hits, Bleed debuff falls off.
_______________________________________________________
Duelist Flurry
Duelist's Flurry: When the bleed portion of this power is at 10 stacks, further applications now recalculate damage in addition to refreshing the duration.
With this patch your bleed keeps refreshing, depending after every flurry(pretty sure it refreshes during your flurry, every time a stacked is applied.)
Live Shard:
Average bleed:5000
Average Lurker Bleed:10750
Test Shard:
Average Bleed: 5000
Since this bleed number is fixated around an average number, no matter how you try to boost damage with lurker's ur subsequent bleedstacks will constantly overwrite the previous bleed stack thus the average bleed will remain relatively the same with or without damage buffs. skewed towards higher damage assuming using damage boosting skills such as lurker's(15% crit severity.)
Non Crit
There is a Hidden buff of 8% increase in all of our at wills.
Live: 2000+2000+10(2000(0.4))= 12000
Test: 2160+2160+10(2160(0.4))= 12960
50% Crit
Live: 2000+2.15(2000)+5(2000(0.4))+5*2.15(2000(0.4)) = 18900
Test: 2160+2.15(2160)+5(2160(0.4))+5*2.15(2160(0.4)) =20412
Overall Our base damage
____________________________________________________________
Lurkers Nerf
Lurker's Assault: This power now grants 5 / 10 / 15% bonus Crit Severity, instead of 20 / 40 / 60% bonus damage.
Mathematically speaking:
Note that Duelist flurry deals 2 hits of base damage then hits 10 times for 30-40% of the that damage. lets be generous and give us 40%. Being generous again lets give rogues 50% crit chance to make things simplier with no vorpal enchants.
Note this is without overrun critical(which provides somewhere between 10-5% of total damage depending on rogue's crit chance(its too complex to explain here, so we'll leave this out)).
Flat base Crit severity: 75%
Brutal Backstab feat: 25%(understealth)
Deadly Momentum feat: 15%(after lots of flurries)
Total: Crit severity 115% which means 215% of regular damage
I actually hit around 1800-1900.
Live: 1 Duelist Flurry(4 seconds)
Average damage per hit out of LA: 2000+2000+10(2000(0.4))= 12000
Assuming 50% crit chance: 2000+2.15(2000)+5(2000(0.4))+5*2.15(2000(0.4)) = 18900
Average damage per hit in LA:
no crit: 3200+3200+10(3200(0.4))= 19200
50% crit: 3200+2.15(3200)+5(3200(0.4))+5*2.15(3200(0.4))=30240
LA Duration:10 seconds.
Thus I can fit 2.5 Flurries(not exactly true due to awkward initial cast animations since more damage is dealt in the subsequent 2 seconds) in a lurkers. Total damage over 10 seconds is = 75600, divide that by 2 which will yield 5 seconds for 37800 damage.
Test:
Average damage per hit out of LA:
Same as in Live server except the fact that stealth runs out before flurry can finish thus you deal less damage(due to losing brutal backstab feat) in test than live. Lets ignore that and assume they deal same damage.
Assuming 50% crit chance: 2160+2.15(2160)+5(2160(0.4))+5*2.15(2160(0.4)) =20412
Average damage per hit in LA:
115% crit severity becomes 130% crit severity, which changes equation to:
2160+2.3(2160)+5(2160(0.4))+5*2.3(2160(0.4))= 21384
Since this is over the course of 5 seconds and assuming stealth does not run out(which is not true). you are able to squeeze in 1.25 flurries 1 flurry + 1 second of 4 seconds flurry. This will yield me 20412*1.25= 25515
LA Duration: 5 seconds
Live Shard, Over 10 seconds under Live Lurker's: 75600
Test Shard, Over 10 seconds 5 under Lurker's and 5 seconds without lurkers: 25515+21384= 46899.
Difference in damage= 28701
% loss from Live shard=28701/75600 = 38% loss in damage.
Second note, this does not include encounters which provides even more burst to lurker's damage. With this patch going live, its bye bye to my rogue and hello to my gwf since my sure strike will 100% out dps my rogue with or without my unstoppable and have much more utility and survivablity.
________________________________________________________________
Stealth/Our at-wills/Class Ability
Stealth: At-will powers used from stealth will now partially deplete the Stealth Meter.
This is tricky to mathematically calculate. due to the fact that stealth runs out before duelist flurry finishes. If the first 2 awkward attacks are not in stealth the 10 attacks followed up depletes the whole stealth bar. If begin the first attacks are in stealth, the stealth runs out before flurry.
Flurry damage wise, its only a slight nerf since you are not taking full 100% of the brutal backstab feat.
Survivablity wise: we wont have stealth to begin with if u want to attack(like when i first played rogue lvling and chucking pots from lvl 20-30 not realizing i had stealth)
Stealth Lasts for a total of 5 seconds. Previously we can 1 flurry + encounter to benefit from the full of the stealth + encounter. Now we cant even finish flurry before stealth finishes. So good bye encounter bonuses.
______________________________________________________________
Is Class Ability suppose to have synergy with our at-wills and our encounter's? Guardian Fighter: Block gives 2 new at-wills synergizes with their skills to tank and refill guard meter. Great Weapon Fighter: Unstoppable gives Attack speed boost to at-wills, damage reduction, temporary hp, and encounter damage bonus. Control Wizard: Spell mastery gives another encounter slot, magic missile gives arcane, spells on tab uses arcane(some spells). Devout Cleric: Divinity gives new at-wills, encounter bonus loses 1 charge when used, damage builds divinity.
And then we have:
Rogues Stealth gives us bonus encounter effects but loses stealth when used, gain 100% combat advantage for duration of it, cannot be seen by most adds.
Cons of each class ability:
Guard- limits potential aoe cleave damage potential.
Determination/Unstoppable- need to take damage(not alot lol), reduction in at-will damage
Spell Mastery- none, are u going to tell me its hard to do at-wills because your cooldowns on your encounters keep coming off because u have 4 different spells?
Divinity- anything in divine mode costs divinity.
Stealth- anything in stealth costs stealth, taking damage reduces stealth.
DC Divinity vs TR stealth
Team Benefit vs Personal Benefit
Ranged Class vs Melee Class
Support vs Striker/Damage Dealer
Medium armor class/Low Armor class
I see pure synergy in other classes with their class abilities, I do not see rogues have any sort of synergy with stealth you can pop stealth and use encounter, but what about the other 2 encounters? dc with full divinity can use all 3 encounters. everything we do reduces stealth, dcs can deal damage while in non divinity mode to gain divinity. we just have to wait and regen or use shadow strike another encounter for 5 secs of stealth thats going to run out in 5 secs if we do nothing with it.
________________________________________________________
I do understand to tone down the power of rogues in PvP. However understand that such drastic nerfs are to be even attempt to be implemented in a test server, shows that no one in the development team did any sort of arithmetic calculations on this nerf unless this such severe nerf is intended by the dev team to cripple the rogue. Even on test shard this nerf is so severe, along with the mockery of the new t2 gear from feywild module makes me more sad.
T2 gear set for rogues is: on your attacks you poison your target for 53xx damage over 15 seconds, targets cannot be internal cooldown on target of 15 secs(aka hit target deals 5k poison damage over 15 secs then next 15 secs unable to refresh debuff poison. u can apply new stack of poison after the second 15seconds)
Question is rogues have aoe skills that can benefit from this poison? Whirlwind, Blitz, stacked adds with dazing, stacked adds with wicked, pseudo aoe path of blades? If this t2 set bonus that deals 10k damage on a cw it can be understandable because they actually can make use of this damage, while single target rogues cannot.
____________________________________________________________
If you have any more questions u can mail me at:
Lanaya@meeggtoast 12.7k gwf(3k stone)
Nevermore@meeggtoast 12.2k TR(3k stone)
Dragon Shard and Test Shard
Edit: to those whom think this nerf to rogues was deserved... prepare your bottoms with lube for my gwf. Because since annoying rogues who deals no damage is dealt with by cryptic, it cleared the road for my GWF to become king of PvP and PvE, in damage, survivablity, and utility. Sadly for the rogue, they will have no real stun, no damage, no hp, no armor, a mere joke of "stealth" and fade away into oblivion...
Nevermore@meeggtoast 12.2 BiS TR
Lanaya@meeggtoast 13.4 BiS GWF
Shendelzare@meeggtoast 11.2k CN mule CW
Server: Dragon
Stream: meeggtoast
Guide: Meeggtoast's Destroyer Dps Guide
Lanaya@meeggtoast 13.4 BiS GWF
Shendelzare@meeggtoast 11.2k CN mule CW
Server: Dragon
Stream: meeggtoast
Guide: Meeggtoast's Destroyer Dps Guide
Post edited by meeggtoast on
0
Comments
Yea its kind of a flavor of the month.
It recently has been the flavor to believe that gwf's are so gimp and underpowered and this has protected them from nerfs. But, if these changes go live slowly the perception will be that gwf's are too powerful and they will be "adjusted". Round and round we go!
(new Paragon abilities for the other classes can be found here)
A ranged TR with the new DoT At-will, Cloud of steel, impact shot, impossible to catch, shadowstrike and dagger threat seems like it could be extremely strong.
So i'm not personally going to assume the TR class is dead in PvP until the patch actually goes live. I do think PvE TRs are going to be too weak though, even with the new paragon tree.
You realize that the new hidden paragon path won't allow you to combine the one we currently have, right? You choose 1 path and use the skills that path provides. You can't combine multiple paths' skills together. You're assuming that we can combine both paths together when the reality is, we can't.
Plus, we have no idea when that new path will be implemented, nor do we know exactly what skills are in it.
What we do know is that they'll be destroying the current paragon path we currently have if the preview server changes go through.
Yes, i realize that. What i didn't know though was that impossible to catch was a paragon ability. You could just swap impossible to catch for something else and still have ranged TR. Bait and Switch or Path of Blade would be good alternatives.
Our class skill is suppose to have synergy with us not just a 2 trick pony with stealth + encounter or stealth run away from battle. That's what I can't understand about this nerf. At least make logical sense when you go nerf a class.
I don't see GWF break unstoppable when using encounters. I don't see Spell mastery having any negative effects for CW. I don't see any decent DC having trouble keeping divinity up. Guard only stops a GF from having more DPS. What do rogues get? the short end of the stick already for losing stealth after using encounter, then what regen it back? with the amount of adds in a dungeon you are only dreaming, if u take damage you lose stealth if u regen. so 90% you are not even in stealth in a dungeon. So whats the difference between a rogue who can stealth and a rogue who cannot? OH wait did I mention our at will decreases our stealth? yes make us more useless in a dungeoning party. You will become more useless than a GWF that does not know how to play his class and cries about can't get into a party.
Lanaya@meeggtoast 13.4 BiS GWF
Shendelzare@meeggtoast 11.2k CN mule CW
Server: Dragon
Stream: meeggtoast
Guide: Meeggtoast's Destroyer Dps Guide
Typically, the main complainers when a class gets nerfed are members of the class itself. There wouldn't be much of a reasonable expectation that all other classes contest the change of another class except in unusual circumstances.
CW did the majority of the complaining when CWs were changed. TRs are doing the majority of complaining when TR are changed. The change to DCs was a bit different, because many wished to keep the dual layering of AS, so a diversity complained about that change.
Which is odd since the dual-stacking really *was* broken - I think the CD nerf was unnecessary though - all it's done is push Clerics towards cookie-cutter loadouts in PvE which is a shame. Righteousness continues to be a sore topic though since we're still the only class with a major built-in debuff - I wouldn't mind if it had an upside (CC resistance?) but even though it's workable, it's still far from satisfactory.
Agreed, yet in this case I've seen plenty of folk with their main not being a TR saying they too find this one over the top.
Besides, have you read some of the 'insights' and 'reasonings' on these boards from people who don't play TR's?
Apparently TR's take no damage in stealth, can have CC immunity all the time, every hit is a oneshotkill, they have unlimited ranged attacks and only have to press one button once and *poof*, permastealth.
It's not surprising that posts with that kind of 'wisdom' get answered by TR's saying L2P.
People with only CW's did most of the complaining against the TR class. I've seen more GF's saying they just stomp TR's as they do most other classes than those claiming to be facerolled by them. GWF's don't seem to speak out that much, I reckon it's because they're hanging low to avoid being the next whine-of-the-week.
Maybe you're right about 'most people' not wanting AS nerfed, but unless you are psychic and know what every player is thinking, it's just a guess. The change was indeed different though, stacking dual AS made the party invincible, and I think the common concensus was that this was not working as intended. It didn't affect any coreskill of the DC, as this nerf does to the TR class.
Apples and oranges.
hes talking about before.
i remember ray of enfeeble debuffed for 60%+ extra damage, then got nerfed. it was understandably OP though. 60% damage buff is just silly.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
Ok, I see. You can still stack RoE on tab, up to 4 stacks of tab RoE which makes CN second boss/Xirvos much faster.
Lanaya@meeggtoast 13.4 BiS GWF
Shendelzare@meeggtoast 11.2k CN mule CW
Server: Dragon
Stream: meeggtoast
Guide: Meeggtoast's Destroyer Dps Guide
It would not be balanced even if it took 5 seconds to use.
You mean the rogue at will with a cool down timer and 36 seconds at that? Will all class with an AT WILL that has a cool down timer please raise your hands? AT WILL MY HAMSTER$ the definition of at will is any time you feel like, not oh let me wait 36 seconds to do this at will with full charges.