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[GF PVP] 1v1ing a Particular Immunity-heavy TR build
sfxer001
Member Posts: 118 Bounty Hunter
What is the best way to handle a Trickster Rogue who is feated for Cloud of Steel damage from stealth, who uses the following "rotation" -- ??
- Opens with Cloud of Steel from stealth
- Impossible to Catch when stealth wears off for stun immunity
- Smoke Bomb after Impossible to Catch for more stun immunity (or vice versa, uses smoke before ITC)
- Double dodges as smoke ends for additional immunity
- restealths for more dagger throwing.
I can't get consistent enough damage on him to stop his restealth meter, nor can I land a bull charge to interrupt his approach. He's permanently immune, and it does take him a while to kill me, but it takes me a while to try to slip in a bull charge between all of his immunities. I either end up dying to him or team mates come to rescue either of us from each other.
Thoughts on how to handle a rogue using this technique?
- Opens with Cloud of Steel from stealth
- Impossible to Catch when stealth wears off for stun immunity
- Smoke Bomb after Impossible to Catch for more stun immunity (or vice versa, uses smoke before ITC)
- Double dodges as smoke ends for additional immunity
- restealths for more dagger throwing.
I can't get consistent enough damage on him to stop his restealth meter, nor can I land a bull charge to interrupt his approach. He's permanently immune, and it does take him a while to kill me, but it takes me a while to try to slip in a bull charge between all of his immunities. I either end up dying to him or team mates come to rescue either of us from each other.
Thoughts on how to handle a rogue using this technique?
Post edited by sfxer001 on
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Encounter - Frontline Surge
Still having issues - Slot - Guarded Assault
SoS & Guarded Assault will reflect dmg and take the TR out of stealth also give you the location of the TR due to the animations they give off.
Then frontline surge their location while they are in stealth and listen for if it hits. When you hit you'll also see an animation of the impact and the general direction they should be laying. Then run to them and bull charge and run towards that direction they should come out of stealth by the time you reach them after bullcharge. Then keep using lunge / threatening rush to keep dmg on them so they can't build stealth.
TR's are really easy to beat once you know how to break stealth.
That's generally how I handle them, but this particular one wasn't hittable. I haven't tried Supremacy of Steel daily or Guard Assault out, but perhaps I'll give that a try next time my usual build (Indom + Recov, Trample Fallen) can't handle that rogue spec. Thanks!
CoS --> smoke bombs when I close in on him --> ITC when it wears off so he is still immune to stuns --> dodge immune --> dodge immune --> restealths and opens with another smoke bomb again.
When I do land a stun, soulforged saves him and he scurries away, and comes back later with full encounters.
He was pretty good and was not making mistakes like other rogues do. Consistent with his dodges right after Smoke Bomb and ITC and then restealthing. He wasn't doing an insane amount of damage, but his build was all about survivability in the open via immunities instead of being 100% perma-stealthed. He simply wasn't CC'able and either completely dodged or deflected all of my attacks for half damage.
Honestly you wont and cant win EVERY matchup... There are classes and specs that shine against others and this TR sounds really skilled. GFs are not necessarily the best 1v1ers as a TON of the amazing viability of the class is in tandem with another DPS class.
Typically the most optimal use of a GF is to stay with a group and be the one that "CCs" the GWFs so the DPS can kill them. If your plan is to send 1 person to the far point, a TR/GWF is the best candidate for that...
DK pretty much nailed it, its based around luck if you frontline him correctly and you need to really time your bull perfectly as soon as he re-enters stealth if you want hopes of defeating him AND holding the point. I think part of the problem is he isnt afraid to leave and come back with fresh openers, so you cant be afraid either. If he restealths, just run, and either grab the pot or on the ruins map, go uptop and try and ambush him. If you get the first encounter its an easy win. So rig the deck in your favor...
Somtimes running away to come back under optimal conditions IS the best way to win...
I suppose this won't be an issue in a month since rogues are getting the guillotine again in the most recent preview shard patch notes. If you haven't read those notes yet, Duelist Flurry getting another nerf, Cloud of Steel will have only 8 charges instead of 12, at-wills used in stealth will diminish the stealth meter and Lurker's Assault was completely gutted (instead of 60% bonus damage it will get 15% critical severity). That Lurker's nerf is going overboard, considering the other nerfs addressed the perma-stealth build and the Lurker's nerf affects PVE significantly, too.
I also agree that GF's are not the best 1v1 class, but they are a very good overall class. Jack of all trades with a lot of utility. GF's definitely shine in a group, particularly with a DC or CW or both. We truly are excellent defenders that can slow down multiple attackers' burst damage with both Bull Charge and Frontline Surge.
Peeling is generally what I try to do when I can identify someone else on my team worth protecting, but of course, half the time in pubs it's unorganized and simply just you vs. them.
I play with the Timeless Hero set, with R6 Dark enchants for the armor pen and lesser soulforged/lesser plaguefire (not rich yet). I find I am better suited with this setup to rely on my teammates more for protection, and I can deliver very consistent burst damage without relying on being hit for stalwart stacks. Timeless is very good in this respect, as you become the tip of the spear. Stalwarts would make for a better 1v1/solo artist setup with it's higher defense, regen and power stacking.
It's all about your characters build/gear/enchants & personal skill.
If I recall, you're Stalwart built. Stalwart build is better for 1v1ing since you'll definitely be getting hit back. It's much better for that style of play. However, once everyone learns not to attack you, and CC you to force stacks to drop off, kiss the power goodbye. Timeless is a bit more glass cannon and delivers a consistent punch, but you need team mates to cover your back. I prefer the Timeless set's offensive style more and would rather not rely on being hit by others to ramp up my damage, but the Stalwart build is more durable and can hit back pretty hard.
I also fear that the Stalwart set bonus might get nerfed, since it is severely over-budget. Look at those upcoming nerfs to rogues. Who is to say that a mere set bonus is off limits if a class is not? The upcoming expansion module might even have better gear than either set, too.
Also yeah DK and myself run Stalwarts and honestly I dont think they will nerf it. It has amazing power BUT it does have the cons of requiring to be hit first and it has like a recharge to the power build up meaning it doesnt all stack at once...
To the OP, if your using timeless you have to expect that since your not built as tanky, you will drop faster than some1 with stalwarts... Personally I have NEVER had a problem 1v1 against a TR, HOWEVER, I dont think ive personally matched anyone who is very skilled at them yet... I have on my GWF and its been good fights...
I also want to point out that if your rank 6s in timeless you are not BiS geared (even forgetting timeless vs stalwarts for a second) and if this rogue is BiS geared with tene or not, a skilled person that is under geared in comparison to an opponent who is not as skilled... well it only makes up so much difference....
If this person is equally skilled as u but out gears you there really isnt much you can do... If he uses a perf vorpal and stacks crit and you use plaguefire... not really gonna help you out there...
All that said, youve pretty much got all the ehlp you can get from rotations/strats etc to get this guy... it seems your gear is holding you back some...
One strat you could try is to ride in, as soon as he pops stealth, ride back out to run it down... hell eventually come out again and you can try that... if he is smart he will counter that but hey, worth a shot! Get him to pop is stealth and ride away and run it down by essentially kiting it on your horse.. just dont get knocked off!
When the window to attack is small, the higher geared/more burst builds fair better against them. Also, if he doesnt have tene and tried this against my GWF, it would be GG and I would laugh as he barely scratches me...but enough about my epeen... LOL
In all seriousness, do you know why sent gwfs are the class of choice for premades? because they can contest a far point and stay alive the best, to run away when low, heal and come back to contest again... Will they often get most kills or even the most points in the match? Nope the whole purpose of them is really just be a dbag to the other team by annoying the heck out of them... If sent gwfs want to actually take the point, well thats when the rest of the team is needed to come in... I say this so you know, sometimes you by yourself just wont be able to do things like cap a point even 1v1... its just how it is...
If the TR is on the point and you want to cap it well... your options are to go in and try and find him, or try and get him to use up his stealth.. and then you have a chance. If you are on the point and a TR comes to cap it? Your really only choice is to run away and come back for the opener.. and see if you get the advantage...
because, currently you cant beat the guy if he is playing right and honetly from my experience, TRs are arguable the least gear dependent class... So if you cant beat em, well... your in luck cause you have 4 teammates... cant get them to coordiante with you? well... its called a pug for a reason...
Just gotta learn what role your class excels at in pvp and then position yourself to be in those situations more often than not... For instance, GFs really excel at stun/knocking opponents and are VERY good doing that against GWFs preventing them from going unstoppable...
I get the point that your posting. This particular build/tr is strong against your current setup... YOu can switch your gear/enchants to give you a slitghly better edge or TRY your best to pull out of stealth but not much else you can do...
Take heart that this build is getting a nerf so, itll happen less often in the future.
Also if this 1 player knows your play style they will farm you if they know they can beat you 90% of the time. So you'll need to mix up your skills and get the win rate down to 50% or less to make them think twice before going vs. you.
Stalwart Set?
Easy to counter. Just the same as killing a GWF: Do not attack him while he got Stacks or CC him (GWF: CC him before unstoppable or run away while he is unstoppable). Well... most players dont know this and then they fail in PvP.
If you are not (ab)using Tenebrous Enchantments, the best GF PvP items are just a good combination of non-Set BiS-items. This way a very high Power, Crit, Recovery and ArPen is possible. And you are able to deal high damage without beeing hit previously. If im riding to a node, i'll open the fight with frontline surge and very often, im getting the first hit (frontline -> lunging -> Bull Charge).
This way, stalwart set is very bad for my tactics. especially in 1on1 vs non stealthed TR. Im nearly allways getting the first, second or at least the third hit in combat. Stalwart has no chance to create enough stacks.
My tactics for killing a good TR using dazing strike, smoke bomb and impossible to catch:
try to run around and block during his impossible to catch to avoid high damage. Watch your guardmeter! You need a little bit guardmeter to block dazing strike! Block dazing strike.
And: If he is using smokebomb very close to you: Use bull charge to kick him away. You will be "undazed" until he is up again. There is a very small window for bull charging him in the moment he is using smokebomb. Its very hard to hit within the window, but after a little bit of practise, its working fine.
In case that the TR is using smokebomb while impossible to catch: Try to get shield up in the moment of smokebomb. Keep it up as long as possible. This way you might be able to block dazing strike.
Additionally: try to hit him with frontline surge while he is stealthed - its very lucky, but you should try it.
All in all: Impossible to catch builds with high str/dex are very(!!!) strong in PvP. A pure 1on1 will be very hard for each class and the result of the 1on1 depends only to the skill of both players. There are very small but very important timing windows for both players. That player who did hit the windows exactly will be the winner.
And here is the reason:
He is a saboteur build, and it seems he has some defense and deflect gear too.
heres a diff tactic
you dont need to go to TR if he start using CoS use Guard and pinpoint his location then frontline surge if it hit use threat rush (mark = -10%def and if you have crushing pin + 10% damage) bull rush then lunge strike
if FS missed guard and retreat if theres a wall go to it and make sure your back is facing the wall so he cant hit you
if theres no wall guard run back guard run guard untill frontline surge is available again (he will ran out of stealth meter for sure)
if you have daily just SoS and jump+threat rush they will panic and use roll(works on every class if you want them to use dodge) dont use skill yet just do it untill their stamina ran out (if he doesnt dodge FS him)
im not conqueror so i have low damage but i dont have problem with TRs just learn how to use the skill at the right moment and how to trick them
if youre running most of them will be running at a straight line it will be easy to knock them using frontline surge you can jump FS too to make your movements unpredictable
I think a stalwart build would serve me better against this individual over a timeless build. That's the only thing I haven't yet tried.
threat rush him if you can and make him use all of his dodge
bull rush is so predictable use FS first to knock them its faster, use it while jumping or while using at wills
fought against lots TR even with LA its all about tricking them how to waste their skills
i can even beat TRs with my gwf(bladestorm set only no enchants and not sentinel) just need to use skills wisely
dont use SoS before combat they will just run away, you also need to use it at the right time
timeless = glass cannon (high crit chance but low def and no regen)
stalwart > timeless (for me)
i deal high damage even without stal buffs (im not conqueror so if youre a conqueror you will deal higher damage than me you can 2-3 skill ko them even without knights challenge)
you can check their stats here http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Armor_Set