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pyron1x
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 16 Arc User
Really getting discouraged by playing the CW.
I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I keep getting outdamaged by TR's and almost every other class. I'm level 25. TR's 4 levels below me are outdamaging me in skirmishes and dungeons. I had a skirmish run where I came 4th in most damage done, considering that I really was doing everything (as in exerting all my effort) I can to do damage during the run. Even DC's and GF's who are focusing on dps are able to outdamage me.
Here is my setup:
Tab - Chill Strike
Q, E, R - Entangling Force, Conduit of Ice, Shield
1, 2 - Singularity, Ice Storm
LMB - Magic Missile
RMB - Ray of Frost
Here is my current feat build: http://nwcalc.com/cw?b=cn4:2hwcg:5m9s,1f23id0:60000:60000:60000&h=0 (I didn't fill up the powers part, just the feat tab so you need to switch to that).
My rotation is to just use encounters whenever they're up. I usually use Conduit and Chill Strike if there's an AoE opportunity. Cast Singularity (or Ice Storm) if it's up. Entangling Force - I use only when there's no other button I can push.
I geared myself with up to date greens and blues from AH.
I just feel so very very weak dps-wise with this class. Can someone give me build/rotation advice? I've read almost all the guides on this forum, and already spent 30K AD respeccing my feats and 300 zen retraining everything from start, but I'm still always coming in 3rd or 4th.
I really don't care about the "control" part of this class. I'll worry about that once I know for a fact that this class can dps.
What am I doing wrong? Please help.
I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I keep getting outdamaged by TR's and almost every other class. I'm level 25. TR's 4 levels below me are outdamaging me in skirmishes and dungeons. I had a skirmish run where I came 4th in most damage done, considering that I really was doing everything (as in exerting all my effort) I can to do damage during the run. Even DC's and GF's who are focusing on dps are able to outdamage me.
Here is my setup:
Tab - Chill Strike
Q, E, R - Entangling Force, Conduit of Ice, Shield
1, 2 - Singularity, Ice Storm
LMB - Magic Missile
RMB - Ray of Frost
Here is my current feat build: http://nwcalc.com/cw?b=cn4:2hwcg:5m9s,1f23id0:60000:60000:60000&h=0 (I didn't fill up the powers part, just the feat tab so you need to switch to that).
My rotation is to just use encounters whenever they're up. I usually use Conduit and Chill Strike if there's an AoE opportunity. Cast Singularity (or Ice Storm) if it's up. Entangling Force - I use only when there's no other button I can push.
I geared myself with up to date greens and blues from AH.
I just feel so very very weak dps-wise with this class. Can someone give me build/rotation advice? I've read almost all the guides on this forum, and already spent 30K AD respeccing my feats and 300 zen retraining everything from start, but I'm still always coming in 3rd or 4th.
I really don't care about the "control" part of this class. I'll worry about that once I know for a fact that this class can dps.
What am I doing wrong? Please help.
Post edited by pyron1x on
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Comments
It's not very reasonable to expect to out-dps a pure Dps class with a support class while leveling up. Just be glad you can at 60 in high mob density situations.
As for other classes out dpsing you... There are just too many variables to determine why. But keep your chin up. In an hour you'll be level 30 and maybe the balance of power will change in your favor for a few levels.
That said, do not wait for an opportunity to use chill strike/CoI. Use them all the time. Use shield pulse on every singularity and any other opportunity where you won't do too much scattering. Use ice storm when you see mobs around you at or below 20%. In case you didn't know, you can keep right/left mouse button pressed while using encounters.
Get to 60 and enjoy being the most wanted class for any T2 because of your CC, dps, and debuffing.
Wait... I'm confused. So there's no range DPS class in this game? I had the impression that rogues were single target DPS and mages were the AoE dps. Skirmishes are primarily AoE fests (or at least the ones I've done so far) hence the confusion as to why I'm doing so badly considering that I'm really putting so much effort in dishing out as much damage as I can and still coming out second to fourth place all the time.
Thanks so much for replying copticone. Your guide is actually one of the references I'm using. This game is just very confusing to me at the moment. The meters at the end of the run is the only indication of how well I did during the run, and I always strive to do my very best in each run, regardless of whether I'm in a PUG or not. Call it a matter of self-satisfaction, but I always challenge myself to top that meter because that's my way to determine if I'm playing a class right or not. There's no category for how well I "controlled" mobs, so really, how do I determine how I'll improve apart from looking at damage done?
When the tank, the healing class, and their mothers starts pummeling me in damage done then there's something wrong with 1) how I'm playing, or 2) class design. I'm just trying to figure out which is which so I'll know if this is a class I'll invest time (and yes, money) into.
Clearly, he groups with terrible rogues. Or enjoys making patently untrue statements. You will not compete with a rogue for single target DPS. Don't try. Remember you're in a group. Debuff that target for everyone. Choke it when it telegraphs. YOUR job is to make everything easier on the group. Did you complete the dungeon/skirmish with minimal deaths and in a timely fashion? Yes, then you are good. No, re-evaluate your playstyle. Now if another CW is controlling just as much as you and doubling your damage, then you may want to look into things, but don't compare yourself to a class whose sole purpose is to burn things down.
I am not saying that you can't compete for DPS at lower level. I am saying it is not worth the "investment". You can keep getting BIS for your level, keep upgrading your gear, constantly upgrade your enchants, etc...But I am just telling you it is a waste of resources. And you need to know that Classes don't scale equally in DPS or even in general effectiveness. Being 1st in damage in the lower levels is no indication of how you will be performing in End Game. In fact most people START to learn their class at 60.
Just focus on leveling. Enjoy the content. Experiment with the powers. Do not follow my build or anyone else's. To know what works and what doesn't isn't or shouldnt be based on someone else's guide/build/spec. You need to learn everything about the class and it is better to do it before you hit end game. If at 60 you end up using my build or some other build, at least you will have a solid understanding of why you chose that route. Just because a spec is good for one player doesn't mean it is good for everyone.
All I am really saying is to not worry about it, even if you really are doing something wrong. It's ok. In time things click together and you start to really understand synergy, timing, positioning, etc...CWs can dps very well without loosing an ounce of CC. There will be times where you will be 1st, and other times where you won't. When you have cleared all the content, and you are running with pretty much a core group of people, you stop looking at the scorecard and it just becomes a matter of how fast you can do a run and if the loot was worth the effort.
About rogue... If perf vorpal and 10 ench is a bad rogue, than I don't know what a good rogue is. 2530 ArP, High Vizier set. Depending of group setup and encounter powers differs from full single target to some defensive and controlling. On dracolich after getting rid of adds I swich powers to icy terrain, chill strike, CoI and RoE.
If it were true rogues would be less popular than GWF. Every group would be better served just taking another CW.
I swear you just get on these forums to spread misinformation.
That is part of your prob right there. Would need to know your crit and Armor Pen as well.
My CW was always #1 Pain and Executioner, til I hit 60, and now maybe about 85% with a Rogue maybe getting it. When I run with other CW who use shieild, they are often 4th in the stats while I am #1...these CW tend to have 4000 power, and only 400 Armor Pen and really low Crit as well,
I am full Renegade Spec, in group while leveling I ran:
Chill strike Tab, COI, Repel/Sudden Storm/ROE (Steal Time as soon as it was available), Sinigulariuty and Ice Knife, Always spammed MM to keep Mastery up.
Even soloing, I found it faster in most cases to not use sheild, as mobs were not dying fast enough, and I was still using potions, even tho it does damage, it is not as good as other spells for Action points. Shield has a crazy long cooldown, at lower level I found Repel, which is like a good punch to be better with a 7 sec cooldown.
I did use the cheaper enchantments, but my gear was often times 10 levels behind since levels come so quick in this game...However, I always kept my crit and Armor Pen as high as I could. Heck, my crit was higher than my power for quite awhile, and I still was #1...but I also have had an awesome recovery rate my whole life, which allows me to have Singualrity up at almost the end of every cycle of spells I throw. I am always casting.
Also be aware that some people start dungeons and skirmishes before the rest of the group, so they can get those spots for some reason.
Anyway, as far as I see it, if you are controlling the adds, and the group is succeeding, then you are fine:)
P.S. You want to cast EF, whenever it is up--You have controling action, which gives you AP gain when hitting a controlled target, ap gain=more Singularity =more control =more ap. Also, Ice Storm when grouped is a no no in general except for a couple spots, as well as diminishes your own DPS which as a CW is AOE oriented.
Scattering mobs might seem like a great idea--yikes mobs!
But it makes them so much harder to control, and DPS, I think for every class...I did a simple Epic Dungeon a couple nights ago that I usually breeze thru, and had a real hard time of it since the Cleric kept sunbursting mobs all over the place...It was taking so much longer...and everytime I gathered them up with Singualrity to try can get them togehter to AOE DPS again, the Cleric would scatter them again...the GWF kept telling them to stop, but don't think that they spoke English.
BTW, rene sucks
Noone answered you so far so i'll give it a shot.
If you sit in front of your Computer you should be able to use GOOGLE. ( www.google.com ) Google is a search site where you type in keywords that are then searched for on the entire internet to provide you with information. It's great, try it!
Perhaps they are..And Perhaps Rene sucks, Im not here to be the best or play the best class, Im here to have fun, and I gave my insight on how things were for me while I was leveling up, the only reason I mentioned my type, is because it might make a difference to the OP to know that it is a Rene.
None of the better casters I know who are a million times better than me, use shield in PVE, unless, it's for knocking mobs off, and even then, some argue that it is not needed.
But you can be the best, it is probably real important for you, where as the rest of us have a real life, and just try and give our personal insight sometimes if we have the time, not sit and troll and flame on forums, what are you grounded?
Ignore this guy.
You are a dps class. Not as good on single target as a rogue for single target but otherwise you will out-dps them because of your aoe. Now, you're only lvl 25. Not to discourage you but nothing really matters until 60.
To repeat what the other guy says, just buy whatever's at the shop, i dont suggest enchanting either. Its pointless at your level I levelled 4 characters to 60 so you can believe him/me on that.
NOTHING MATTERS UNTIL 60
Here for the build+guide
All classes can do dps, but quite frankly some are better than the others and among the group there's always going to be one class that's outperforms the others by design. I can't stress the 'by design' part enough, it is always going to be the developers intention for certain class to be the best at certain aspects of the game, especially on their intended role, and when another certain class can do better than that one class, outside the scope of their primary role in general (there will be exceptions, depending on gear setup and softskill, as always, ofc), well, you can say that an upcoming nerf is inevitable.
You are mistaking damage done and DPS. What we have in game is a damage-done meter, not a dps meter. CW has the highest AoE damage projection out of all the classes currently available right now, mainly because our primary role is to apply crowd control and damage effects to multiple mobs at once on a bigger area than other classes, not to mention that CWs are ranged class, meaning that we can do it without frequent repositioning issues like with GWF/GF, this is what causing CWs topping the damage done meter, not the dps.
Even by exploiting the frozen power transfer feat on a single target, we'd still won't out-dps an equally geared TR, not unless the TR doesn't know what he/she's doing.
You are mistaking damage done and DPS. What we have in game is a damage-done meter, not a dps meter. CW has the highest AoE damage projection out of all the classes currently available right now, mainly because our primary role is to apply crowd control and damage effects to multiple mobs at once on a bigger area than other classes, not to mention that CWs are ranged class, meaning that we can do it without frequent repositioning issues like with GWF/GF, this is what causing CWs topping the damage done meter, not the dps.
Even by exploiting the frozen power transfer feat on a single target, we'd still won't out-dps an equally geared TR, not unless the TR doesn't know what he/she's doing.[/QUOTE]
DPS = Dmg dealt/duration
More damage dealt than tr in a dungeon. lasted same length for both of you. = more dps.
About single target DPS... depends, if he's HEAVILY armored, like some High End GF, cw can do more dmg. On squishies, rogue will do more. But most of their attack implies the target is standing still or nearly.
I have both a rogue and a cw. Rogue is only good for single target, but even then. The only way for a rogue to equals a cw is to have a high end vorpal. with high crit chance, they will do good.
Yes i run CN, you look at the screenshot post, I believe mine's on page 17. Will give you an idea of my gear.
Here for the build+guide
I don't quite comprehend what you're trying to say here. I was commenting on your statement of "out dps-ing from aoe" which in a single target context (or even dps in general) was highly contradictory. Single target dps is hard enough to measure without 3rd party assistance in this game, let alone trying to analyze overall dps on a full dungeon run that includes mobs/adds/aoe application. In MMO in general even, DPS is rarely used as a metric to measure AoE/damage done, so no, damage dealt overall in dungeon divided by length of time shouldn't be used to (even) roughly calculate DPS on a certain char, because there's too much variables that needs to be included, from how you run that dungeon, how many adds you kill, idle times, travel times, etc. The only way that even came close to stating that one's dps is better than the other is by analyzing combat logs on a single target run over a certain period of time without interruption.
I disagree with your comment about heavily armored targets, even when built around Tau's feated CoI, it's still arguable which one can do better than the other. ARP is not exclusive to CWs, and both classes has roughly the same accumulated damage mitigation when feated properly. So when you say a TR can do better with squishy targets, it made no sense to say that it works differently on tankier target if both classes are applying their DPS on the same level of mitigation/penetration.
Also, I didn't realize we were measuring e-peen on this topic seeing I don't see how your gear is in anyway relevant to the discussion at hand. No offense.
I am sorry, but you are giving too much credit to those "better casters" . If they don't use Shield in PvE, where are they using it? Because it is definitely not a PvP Power.
Benefit of Shield:
- In a combat damage parse, Shield Pulse is usually the highest contributor. Over 30% of you entire damage could come from Shield Pulse.
- Highest AP generation Power. Fastest, safest and easiest way to generate AP.
- Knocking mobs off side.
- one of very few powers with no target cap.
- Gives a couple of seconds of breathing in a bad situation, or to revive someone.
- gives you some mitigation when hit (not much, but you cant complain about mitigation)
So if your friends, who are "better casters", aren't using it in PvE, can you tell us what they chose to replace it with that would not only make up for the above benefits, but also prove to be more useful? I am not saying that a CW can't function without it. And having Repel on Tab could compensate for some of these benefits, but not all of them.
Yes, shield is useful in some situations, but in many situations other powers are more effective, especially in groups. In situations where you get surrounded a lot, I would agree that it is a good one to use, but in other situations there are better ones to use.
In fact, randomly using the shield pulse to do damage is annoying to other players who are wasting daily and encounter abilities because you keep knocking the MoBs away.
Who said you should use Shield randomly? Shield after/before every singularity. Shield against a wall. Shield against a ledge. Another benefit I forgot to mention is proccing HV AND Elemental Empowerment if you are thaum (that's a lot of AoE debuff). In Situation where you are on a boss, it is still useful to keep adds away and generate a ton of AP. Like I said, we would like to know what would be a better option and in what situation? I am genuinely curious and would like to know in case I am missing something. People get annoyed that you are messing with their final damage score, not that you are HAMSTER up the run. If no one is dying, and mobs are getting cleared smoothly, then no one has the right to be annoyed.
Shield is really one of the main AoE damage spells of the CW--if used properly, meaning against walls or edges.
Yeah, and given that we'll probably be tanking most of the adds in the average PuG anyway, who really cares if we scatter the mobs to the four winds? They'll come right back in a couple of seconds to eat us, which gives us the chance to hit that singularity.
(Tongue-in-cheek, obviously.)
More seriously: in a game that allows only four slottable encounter powers, any ability that's a multi-tasker earns a spot almost by default. Shield gives us mitigation; it gives us an infinite-target AoE attack, and it gives us some control (push). Even if you rarely pop the shield, Shield's multifaceted tactical value simply cannot be ignored. If there's a single no-brainer ability for Control Wizards to slot in group PvE, it's Shield. Can't think of another power that's more deserving of slotted-by-default status. Well, ok, maybe Steal Time. That's about it, though.
of course with the upcoming nerf to TR you will probily start out dpsing them soon. Honestly when the devs brutalize a class like they did DC and TR they should buff up some of the powers that people considered pointless or useless, or boost up powers that give more benefit to teams. boost some of the clerics weaker heals and some of the rogues flanking powers.
with CW their holds are so vastly underpowered in dps to the point oppressor is like hamstringing yourself.
This is partially do to PVP worries im sure.