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PvP-Balance issues: Unsolvable in the current system
tharsoniusvb
Member Posts: 43
There must be by now countless threads about OP Classes, nerf-petitions, l2p-replies and all the fun stuff that comes with these topics. Some voice reasonable concerns about balancing, others mostly cry because they got owned in PvP and still others just want everyone to know how awesome they are. It's fun to read and a playground for trolls, so please keep the threads going, if only for my entertainment.
The problem is though, that imo all these balancing and op issues can't be solved unless a radical new system is implemented. And the reason is the differnce between PvP and PvE. They are two completly different animals with totaly differnt requirements.
Lets just take the GF as an example (this is the class i know best but I'm sure, you'll find similar problems with other classes):
(Note : I am not saying the Gf is in any shape, size or form weak in PvP, that is not the Point)
One of the main functions for a GF in PvE is agro-management, the controling of the battlefield, basicly getting the enemy where he wants him to the advantage for the group. When he does his job, the CW and the DC are free to work their magic, the TR and the GWF are able to use combat advantage and everyone is happy. On top he deals out a fair ammount of damage.
If this well geares, skillfuly played Gf enters PvP, a good amount of his skills feats and talents (most of what makes him great for a group) become useless. Agro-mangement? Useless! Controling of the battlefield? Well, other players have minds of their own, so, NO! Protecting the CW and the DC? Maybe to as point but a deacent group will target the DC regardless.
So, as a GF you are left with the Damage, the survivability (wich isn't so great to start with), and bouncing folks around. But basicly, in PvP I am no longer a GF, I am a bouncing machine, a one-string-banjo, with a majority of skills rendered useless.
There may be other things, that are a must have in PvE to survive or to be usefull, that are or at least seem overpowerd in PvP. The problem is, it's impossible or at least very hard to balnce both PvE and PvP at the same time. To make a class usefull and needed in dungeons and put them on an equal level with other classes in PvP.
The only sollution i can come up with is a second build. One build that works only in PvE, with usefull stuff to manage the content and to support the group in dungeons, and a second build, with competly different powers and feats that are unicly balanced for PvP. In this way the nerf-petitions wouldn't harm a class in PvE, we could have a balanced PvP and everybody wins. For a PvP build a CW wouldn't need to be concerned about controlling 50 adds, a Gf wouldn't need to "waste" points for agro-management and therefore you could implement interesting new mechanics, that are balanced and require more than just bouncing folks around.
Well, I am sure others have already come up with similar ideas, but nonetheless, this is a better way than crying nerf, nerf, nerf.
The problem is though, that imo all these balancing and op issues can't be solved unless a radical new system is implemented. And the reason is the differnce between PvP and PvE. They are two completly different animals with totaly differnt requirements.
Lets just take the GF as an example (this is the class i know best but I'm sure, you'll find similar problems with other classes):
(Note : I am not saying the Gf is in any shape, size or form weak in PvP, that is not the Point)
One of the main functions for a GF in PvE is agro-management, the controling of the battlefield, basicly getting the enemy where he wants him to the advantage for the group. When he does his job, the CW and the DC are free to work their magic, the TR and the GWF are able to use combat advantage and everyone is happy. On top he deals out a fair ammount of damage.
If this well geares, skillfuly played Gf enters PvP, a good amount of his skills feats and talents (most of what makes him great for a group) become useless. Agro-mangement? Useless! Controling of the battlefield? Well, other players have minds of their own, so, NO! Protecting the CW and the DC? Maybe to as point but a deacent group will target the DC regardless.
So, as a GF you are left with the Damage, the survivability (wich isn't so great to start with), and bouncing folks around. But basicly, in PvP I am no longer a GF, I am a bouncing machine, a one-string-banjo, with a majority of skills rendered useless.
There may be other things, that are a must have in PvE to survive or to be usefull, that are or at least seem overpowerd in PvP. The problem is, it's impossible or at least very hard to balnce both PvE and PvP at the same time. To make a class usefull and needed in dungeons and put them on an equal level with other classes in PvP.
The only sollution i can come up with is a second build. One build that works only in PvE, with usefull stuff to manage the content and to support the group in dungeons, and a second build, with competly different powers and feats that are unicly balanced for PvP. In this way the nerf-petitions wouldn't harm a class in PvE, we could have a balanced PvP and everybody wins. For a PvP build a CW wouldn't need to be concerned about controlling 50 adds, a Gf wouldn't need to "waste" points for agro-management and therefore you could implement interesting new mechanics, that are balanced and require more than just bouncing folks around.
Well, I am sure others have already come up with similar ideas, but nonetheless, this is a better way than crying nerf, nerf, nerf.
Post edited by tharsoniusvb on
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Comments
BTW, I know that Cryptic nerfed the control time for CW CC in pvp but not in pve, so I think they are already able/willing to adjust skills in pvp without affecting how they function in pve (and visa-versa).
It would be great if that were a lot less of a hassle. Maybe some presets, that would help.
Retraining token are somewhat cheap if you really want. Otherwise you can make yourself a pvp char of some kind. Im running CN regularly with my pvp cw. Although I'm solely pvp based without even one consideration for any of the pve stuff. My DC is pve completely, focussed around healing, and I do run in pvp with a lot of fun also. I think you can do pretty much anything. If you really want to change, you can always retrain.
Also, from my experience, the feats and such arn't usually the main problem. The biggest problem comes from the gear. pve//pvp gear isn't the same. For instance, miracle healer set for cleric does 5% of your hp in healing to you or a nearby target... Nearly useless in pvp compared to what other sets can give.
Also, it would remove the customisation part in your character. It's fun to make a character and know that you're building towards a goal, and not that you can just mess around and always do better for this or that on you're other page.
For instance, Diablo 3 sucked because there was no skills choosing, you just got everything as it was. Diablo 2 was popular all the time, it's still played too. But until recently, you could never change your build once made. It gave the feeling that everything you did counted. Not just something you can merely discard.
Also let's not forget the ABUNDANCE of extra power points we get. you only need a few technically, but you get 60 of them. You can place one in every single skill and max most of them// leave the useless passives out. You don't really need anything done there.
PS: You made me laugh IRL about being a bouncing machine, but that's really how it is
Here for the build+guide
I know this suggestion is a bit radical and of course would give devs a ton of headaches just coming up with 2 completely separate trees and builds per class, but if they pull something like that off, it would be the first MMO to have a fully PvP AND PvE oriented game. .. of course this is just me wishing
PvE is balanced by damage over time.
PvP is balanced by damage burst.
in NW its possible to get many encounters so that you are able to change all your skills for PvE->PvP.
theoretical balancing example:
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If TR is OP because he is onehitting everything: lower the damage and the cooldown. Overall damage per minute will be the same but the burst is lowered. In case that the GF is to strong and killing everything within a single rotation: same as for TR! -10% damage, -10% cooldown. Balancing finished.
In case of perma stealth TR its pretty easy because this should be fixed for PvE and PvP: increase cooldown and power of the skills. And in this special case: Maybe a skill should be changed so that its refilling 75% of stealth bar instead of 100% while dealing much more damage.
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There are serval ways to balance the game for PvE and PvP.
And here is the reason:
Rather than switching to a dual spec system, the imbalance could be corrected with a bracketing or ladder system. If high-scoring players are matched against other high-scoring players, the dedicated pvp players would inevitably face each other much more often, and hey, they'd even have the joy of seeing a number on the screen that tells them they're really good. This works because high-involvement pvp players want to *win*. They'll do whatever it takes, get whatever gear or specialized alts they need, in order to win. Lower-involvement pvp players just want to have fun, change up their game experience a little, and maybe score some astral diamonds with the daily quest.
From a business standpoint, Perfect World could benefit from the ladder as well, since it facilitates competitions, high-stakes "professional gamer" events, and other stuff that feeds the marketing department, draws free press coverage, and gives hardcore gamers (the people who really spend money on f2p) a reason to stay with Neverwinter rather than moving on to some new MMO flavor of the month being released by a competitor.
The down-side of such a system is that queue times for pvp matches would increase, but currently, queue times are short, and as the player base increases in size, they should get even shorter. Too, it's pretty easy to code a dynamic player-matching system that can make intelligent trade-offs between producing balanced matches and minimizing wait times.
People just need to relax and let the developers work on class balance. Learn to play your class well, queue with friends, and the rest will sort itself out.
Yeah, that pretty much sums it up. But it's not so much class balance as gear/skill balance here. If I play against a hardcore pvp gamer with a dedicated pvp spec in T2 pvp-optimized gear, and I am a casual or primarily pve player just looking to have a good time in pvp, he's going to get an easy win against me and I'm not going to have a good time. The game is better (and Perfect World keeps more customers and makes more money) if everybody who is gaming is enjoying the game.
BEFORE we continue... The main reason ppl have problems is cause of impropper builds/sets... I released my build to the public to try to help out gfs to be a godsend in both worlds an i will soon let out a cw guide to HIGH-End pvp (pve is a joke atm) lemonade stand vs lemonade stand games are far diffrent then a pug star premade game so luckly i get to test these build vs the most ridicules players/builds in the game before i release it so it is a solid guide.. must admit though nothing can kill a ENDGAME GWF though.. you guys need to fight Lord Steriodz, Kiwi, Carnage these are ENDGAME gwf's stop fight pugstars thinking they are easy to beat... no other class can beat them 1v1.
From #1 Guild Pve/Pvp [ Lemonade Stand ]
Where did you see this? I havent seen this...