How I think the foundry could be improved (if you have a moment Devs :)

cheiftom · June 2013

Hello all,

I just thought I would float some thoughts that people may or may not agree with. I imagine the devs look over the forums like this, so I thought I would offer some constructive criticism as a fellow game designer (all be it for mobile games not mmo's).

I will preface this by saying that I love editors of all varieties and this one is no different. Great work so far Devs and thanks for the great maps so far map makers.

Firstly I believe that the game needs to get people into foundry's whom may not be initially inclined to do so. Why? Well I think there is a real trove of amazing experiences that people are missing out on because they just want to grind the usual stuff. Here is my suggestion:

I have noticed in all mmo's that people are obsessed with loot and rewards (me included :P). It's very Skinnerian, but whatever it works for us (for the most part). I think the foundry needs to align itself with our lust for loot, Astral Diamond daily rewards are simple not enough. Now I realise that you cant just hand out rare loot, it would be exploited somehow. But there are obvious ways around this.

You could hand out a token (tokens if it takes longer) at the end of each foundry quest (that is eligible). These tokens would grant cosmetic items specific to the foundry if enough are collected (they must NOT be in the zen store). Each foundry can only reward you once, so you must keep playing new ones to get the gear. I do not feel that the foundry is reliable enough to be dishing out purple stat loot like candy, but people would play it lots if they could get say, a new skin for their pets or some specific skins to make T2 armor look varied and awesome.

With regards to the foundry as an editor:

I would love to be able to make a boss. Some sort of points based system whereby you can allocate a set amount of points over:

1) Attacks types
2) Movement types and speed
3) The ability to spawn adds at different health amounts
4) The total amount of health

Each of these abilities would use up some of your points so that overall, bosses were about the same difficulty, but each totally individual! (kind of like Champions Online characters actually). I can imagine now being able to make my own complex patterns of red circles that perfectly compliment the environment. Hide behind the pillar, or jump when required. So much fun to be had here.

With regards to the finer points of the foundry, I would love to see:

-Some sort of item list in 3D editing so I can drop items into my map without leaving the 3d edit mode.
-The ability to have 'OR' objective paths (multiple endings as a result)
-Teleporters that could be made invisible when not needed.
-Damage boxes that damage players when collision/overlap occurs (so you can make lava hurt or falls kill)
-The ability for an NPC to turn into an solo encounter without a delete and spawn
-The ability for conversations to consume items (or multiple different items)
-Better camera angles on lying down injured conversations.
-'Currently publishing' to be written inside the foundry, outside the individual map. From the quest select screen.
-My quests get the Foundry Spotlight :P

(I will add any more I can think off later in edits)

I know it's just my opinions and they may not even get read, but maybe they are helpful? Thanks for your time, sorry for the essay!

Tom

sourcreamking · June 2013

cheiftom wrote: »

-Some sort of item list in 3D editing so I can drop items into my map without leaving the 3d edit mode.

I believe this is in the works.

cheiftom · June 2013

sourcreamking wrote: »

I believe this is in the works.

That is great to hear! Will make wild constructions much less painful to make.

neverwinter1776 · June 2013

Can't stress this enough..... Saving and being able to reuse MAPS! Allow us to have a local repository for our custom maps, and assets.

xhrit · June 2013

Custom boss fights were in an early version of the foundry.

People created exploit maps with super tough bosses with lots of HP and super weak attacks, to farm easier.

Cryptic removed custom boss fights.

I doubt we will ever get them back.

cheiftom · June 2013

xhrit wrote: »

Custom boss fights were in an early version of the foundry.

People created exploit maps with super tough bosses with lots of HP and super weak attacks, to farm easier.

Cryptic removed custom boss fights.

I doubt we will ever get them back.

That's a shame. But chances are it was just badly implemented. There would be ways around exploiters, like not dishing out rewards based on anything buy time spent in a foundry session.

wuhsin · June 2013

cheiftom wrote: »

That's a shame. But chances are it was just badly implemented. There would be ways around exploiters, like not dishing out rewards based on anything buy time spent in a foundry session.

Gimping the Foundry to prevent exploiters is no longer a valid excuse, since exploit maps can easily achieve a 4.2 adjusted rating.

anrix2 · June 2013

All I want are Real Timers, @Health % Triggers, non-objective on kill event triggers, and you can keep the boss encounter. I think with these event triggers authors could do some pretty crazy stuff that would make combat and the environments feel more dynamic.

mee2002 · June 2013

I was going to make my own thread, but since this is related I'd like a couple of editor features. First, the ability to click and drag a spot to move your view of the map in 2d. At the very least using arrow keys. Second the ability to group a selection of objects to copy/paste the whole set and to move them all together. Last, the ability to move your character while moving objects in 3D editor.
*Oh, and movable objects*

anrix2 · June 2013

mee2002 wrote: »

Second the ability to group a selection of objects to copy/paste the whole set and to move them all together.

You can do this in the current 2D editor. Use ctrl + click. But you cannot assign them to a cluster, if that is what the comment is asking for.

uberwolfe · June 2013

mee2002 wrote: »

First, the ability to click and drag a spot to move your view of the map in 2d.

I presume you know that if you hold down the space bar you can do exactly that...

xhrit · June 2013

All I want them to add to the Foundry is this :

zahinder · June 2013

First, there's already a stickied suggestion thread.

Second, wuhsin, you're obsessing again. Posting that screenshot over and over will increase the dev's attention by 0, because the people responsible for closing down exploits don't read this forum.

Third, Cryptic is outnumbered and outgunned when it comes to exploits, and they have to be careful. Exploits can kill a game if left unchecked.
City of Heroes became an ENDLESS battle between farmers and devs that crippled the UGC system and possibly the game overall.
I don't blame their restrictions at all, because the bane of exploiters is huge, and THERE ARE NO GOOD SOLUTIONS.

Cryptic is NOT going to staff hundreds of people to look through all our missions. That's not tenable at all, so a human approach just isn't feasible.
So they need simple design restrictions... but which ones?

Personally, I'd rather have rewards strictly tied to average time and cut out kill loot/xp -- your loot and XP are tied entirely to average mission length, and let the rewards evolve organically.

cheiftom · June 2013

zahinder wrote: »

Personally, I'd rather have rewards strictly tied to average time and cut out kill loot/xp -- your loot and XP are tied entirely to average mission length, and let the rewards evolve organically.

I totally agree with this. If a person wants to stand around in foundry's waiting like an idiot to get his reward, then let him do it. Tying time spent to rewards is the way forwards. I guess people will make afk maps, but there is probably a way to stop that.

lolsorhand · June 2013

Bump for great justice! Boo demands it!

voxx75 · June 2013

xhrit wrote: »

Custom boss fights were in an early version of the foundry.

People created exploit maps with super tough bosses with lots of HP and super weak attacks, to farm easier.

Cryptic removed custom boss fights.

I doubt we will ever get them back.

Why can't bosses use the budget system like the maps? For instance, you have 20 points to allocate to a variety of attacks and mechanics. Each ability costs X points - the stronger the attack, the more points it will cost you. Aside from that, the strength of the attacks and hit points shouldn't be editable. This should ensure that the challenge rating and XP rewards are about the same for each boss.

cheiftom · June 2013

voxx75 wrote: »

Why can't bosses use the budget system like the maps? For instance, you have 20 points to allocate to a variety of attacks and mechanics. Each ability costs X points - the stronger the attack, the more points it will cost you. Aside from that, the strength of the attacks and hit points shouldn't be editable. This should ensure that the challenge rating and XP rewards are about the same for each boss.

Yes that was my original post :P I think it would work though. And be fun fun fun!

shorlong · June 2013

I would like to see most of these things as well.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a Token system.

0-14 minutes = No Token
15-29 minutes = 1 Token
30-59 minutes = 2 Tokens
60+ minutes = 3 Tokens

Have a vendor with purple gear (maybe around PVP or T1), one purple companion, two blue companions, one purple mount, two blue mounts, and some customization gear (dyes, fashion, etc).

Highly doubt this would be farmable. It isn't based on average time, but time spent in the quest. If someone wants to afk for an hour to get three tokens, fine. But when it costs 100 tokens to get one gear piece, well, that might help ease the afk exploiters.

Now, bosses, I agree as well. I think the best way for it to work to keep from exploiting isn't a point based system, but a "you HAVE to pick" type of system.

Essentially, you pick the type of boss and the difficulty of said boss (Brute, Controller, Artillery, Lurker, Skirmisher, Soldier....Easy, Standard, Hard, Solo). Even the easy bosses will be a high amount of HP, but they will suffer from the same as the bosses in your standard Cryptic quests (can be easily solo'ed, controlled, a group can waste them in a minute or two.) While the Solo bosses will be more like Karrundax in the way of HP and difficulty.

Each boss has 4 standard and two special attacks, and these do NOT change based on level, but the strength will scale to level. The types of attack vary depending on what you chose for the mob type (controller, brute, etc.) and the difficulty of the boss. So, if I chose a Hard Skirmisher, I would get a list of twenty to thirty attacks to choose from, and I MUST choose four. Then, for the two special attacks, I have a list of around twenty, and I MUST choose two. Dropped loot is green or blue, depending on difficulty of the boss.

zahinder · June 2013

Three things would make boss fights more doable without, I think, opening up exploits:
Allow some encounters to have triggers based on health rather than simple completion.

So you could have Undead encounter visibility: 80% Lich Boss.

Add dialog comments from characters that can be triggered. This would have a lot of uses, but in this case:
Lich Lord comment 2: visibility 80% Lich Lord health: 'Dead arise!'

Finally, let us inflate the hp of enemies a bit to make them a more interesting threat, but don't affect loot. (Loot improvements need to be tackled at a mission level, IMO, and this is just too vulnerable to abuse)

Edit: interestingly, City of Heroes had the first feature, and it really made for more dynamic fights in general. Mind you, NW Foundry is superior in many other ways.

runis12 · June 2013

The token idea sounds amazing Shorlong. :cool:

cheiftom · June 2013

To be honest, I am not sure map maker should HAVE to pick a boss. Many maps have no need for them. I am not really sure how bosses can be exploited anyways, they are like regular mobs just take longer to fight. Just turn off their XP and tie it into the quest complete XP (varied by how long the foundry took) and I don't see the problem..

anrix2 · June 2013

At first I thought bosses were essential but after making a couple of maps, I don't really see them as a requirement. The Foundry is very much about storytelling, even if the author makes a hack and slash or dungeon crawl. With that in mind I think quests can culminate and conclude in a meaningful manner with a little creativity that do not involve an over the top encounter. Bosses would be a nice to have, but I could take them or leave them. It would be nice to adjust health on an individual encounter, to turn a minion kobold rank easy, to a standard solo, but even that can be abused.

zahinder · June 2013

Hell, I don't think COMBAT is necessary and am planning on making it entirely optional in my next (and possibly all future) mission.

wuhsin · June 2013

zahinder wrote: »

Hell, I don't think COMBAT is necessary and am planning on making it entirely optional in my next (and possibly all future) mission.

Options are nice, they will help you to appease more players, but some people will just never be happy. I have gotten down-votes for my quest being too easy, from people who chose to play it on easy mode instead of hard. They claim to want a challenge, but when presented with a choice between easy and hard, they choose easy, then gripe about it being too easy. Maybe it's my fault for not making a standard difficulty, but meh, I only had so many encounters to work with.. On a positive note, some of them replayed it on Hard mode, and gave me a better rating afterward. I'm pretty happy with the success of my quest, but I definitely understand the frustrations of other authors.

zahinder · June 2013

Eh, some people are never happy.

I figure more options both increases the range of folks who might enjoy the quest and provides more replay value for folks who might want to see combat and diplomacy.

My focus lately has been on keeping missions relatively short (15-30 mins) but with diverse options to play through.

feuygar · June 2013

Offering players tokens for better loot doesn't improve the foundry, it simply gives players a better incentive to play foundry content.

What is needed is acceptance on the part of the authors that, unfortunately, a lot of players don't care about: carefully written dialogue within a clever plot, or the hand-crafted design of impressive architecture, or the ambience created by carefully placed items and lighting.
The popularity of exploit-type adventures tells its own story; one where enduring memories of a classic adventure has been replaced by the material desires for better loot. Sadly, (whatever the cause: WoW raiding, gear score, slash & burn until the next free MMO), playing a great quest just because it's GREAT seems to have been lost somewhere along the MMO journey, taking part of the game's soul with it.

I think the Foundry is a pretty good tool now. Yes, I agree that timers and other improvements are needed, e.g. area triggers in an oblong shape rather than only a circle.

My gripe is, given the enormous variety from years of monster manuals, the non-humanoid mobs are sorely lacking.

Feuygar

The Silver Scroll

wuhsin · June 2013

feuygar wrote: »

Offering players tokens for better loot doesn't improve the foundry, it simply gives players a better incentive to play foundry content.

What is needed is acceptance on the part of the authors that, unfortunately, a lot of players don't care about: carefully written dialogue within a clever plot, or the hand-crafted design of impressive architecture, or the ambience created by carefully placed items and lighting.
The popularity of exploit-type adventures tells its own story; one where enduring memories of a classic adventure has been replaced by the material desires for better loot. Sadly, (whatever the cause: WoW raiding, gear score, slash & burn until the next free MMO), playing a great quest just because it's GREAT seems to have been lost somewhere along the MMO journey, taking part of the game's soul with it.

I think the Foundry is a pretty good tool now. Yes, I agree that timers and other improvements are needed, e.g. area triggers in an oblong shape rather than only a circle.

My gripe is, given the enormous variety from years of monster manuals, the non-humanoid mobs are sorely lacking.

Feuygar

The Silver Scroll

Exploiters have got me feeling down too, man. And yes, we do need some non-humanoid mobs. Particularly dragons, gelatinous cubes, and rust monsters.

How I think the foundry could be improved (if you have a moment Devs :)

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