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Hey Cryptic have you noticed this?
farfig1337
Member Posts: 108 Bounty Hunter
Been browsing the forums lately, and I noticed something. One of the most talked about topics on the forums is the state of the GWF and why it is not a valubale member of the party.
My own thread "Why are GWF's still a Dead class" has over 80 replies right now with 9 full pages of text mostly talking about why the GWF fails. Now I read other threads of other GWFs on the difficulties they have faced and then they come in and state they have given up quit the game and moving on.
These are still the same kinda of threads that flooded the boards during beta before the GWF was "fixed". Admitedly I notice alot fewer quitters... I think it's because most of the rages have already quit and moved on, and there are also alot less of the super GWF players trying to pump up the class. Maybe they have just given up trying to convince ppl GWF is useful so they can play on the same level as other class.
I'm not a hard core gamer I'm not huge into class balance but even I see these problems. And when I encounter them in my own game I just meh, logout and go do somethign else I wont deal with it, and I'll come back when I'm bored and looking for a bit of GWF fun, if I can find it.
The main Issues That I have read that should be addressed are.
GWF's viablity in dealing with Adds, Either by making GWF deal more damage the more mobs they fight and thus topping all damage charts endlessly or weakening adds so they they can be killed easily enough so the CW cliff push is not so essential. Or my suggestion give the GWF a party buff power that lets the entire party kill adds great. So ppl will want a GWF because it makes everyone in party more awesome.
GWF's viability as a tank. GWFs do not do noticably more damage than the Damage dealing GF and they cannot compare in tanking threat, even if full sentinal. if GWFs could "main tank" bosses and hold threat off rogues then GF's will not be chosen as an offtank for adds when a party has a GWF. Seen too many players want to put a GWF on boss and let the GF kite the adds simply because they have better threat. (Yet the GWF runs faster and can hit more mobs more often).
Or simply rework the main dungoens that GWFs are see as a weak member if they go there. Spellplague, Dread Vaults, Castle Never. The boss fights in all these dungeons prefer two wizards. If the GWF has no role in a boss fight players wont take them to group. Because the most important fight is the boss fight it is where most groups fail at if the dungeon fails.
Think about it. And if you decide to make a change. Be very loud and very clear a change is being made specifically for the GWF to make them more viable in PvE. Of all the hurdles a GWF needs to jump to be viable in dungeons the worst one will be getting a good reputation as a useful class once again. Players are far too used to doing what works and that wont change 2 CW parties will be prominent no matter how a GWF gets buffed or dungeons changed to favore the GWF play style. Not without a change so drastic that players are forced to break the normal mold and try new things. And that all players are informed about this change and not just the Forum browsers.
My own thread "Why are GWF's still a Dead class" has over 80 replies right now with 9 full pages of text mostly talking about why the GWF fails. Now I read other threads of other GWFs on the difficulties they have faced and then they come in and state they have given up quit the game and moving on.
These are still the same kinda of threads that flooded the boards during beta before the GWF was "fixed". Admitedly I notice alot fewer quitters... I think it's because most of the rages have already quit and moved on, and there are also alot less of the super GWF players trying to pump up the class. Maybe they have just given up trying to convince ppl GWF is useful so they can play on the same level as other class.
I'm not a hard core gamer I'm not huge into class balance but even I see these problems. And when I encounter them in my own game I just meh, logout and go do somethign else I wont deal with it, and I'll come back when I'm bored and looking for a bit of GWF fun, if I can find it.
The main Issues That I have read that should be addressed are.
GWF's viablity in dealing with Adds, Either by making GWF deal more damage the more mobs they fight and thus topping all damage charts endlessly or weakening adds so they they can be killed easily enough so the CW cliff push is not so essential. Or my suggestion give the GWF a party buff power that lets the entire party kill adds great. So ppl will want a GWF because it makes everyone in party more awesome.
GWF's viability as a tank. GWFs do not do noticably more damage than the Damage dealing GF and they cannot compare in tanking threat, even if full sentinal. if GWFs could "main tank" bosses and hold threat off rogues then GF's will not be chosen as an offtank for adds when a party has a GWF. Seen too many players want to put a GWF on boss and let the GF kite the adds simply because they have better threat. (Yet the GWF runs faster and can hit more mobs more often).
Or simply rework the main dungoens that GWFs are see as a weak member if they go there. Spellplague, Dread Vaults, Castle Never. The boss fights in all these dungeons prefer two wizards. If the GWF has no role in a boss fight players wont take them to group. Because the most important fight is the boss fight it is where most groups fail at if the dungeon fails.
Think about it. And if you decide to make a change. Be very loud and very clear a change is being made specifically for the GWF to make them more viable in PvE. Of all the hurdles a GWF needs to jump to be viable in dungeons the worst one will be getting a good reputation as a useful class once again. Players are far too used to doing what works and that wont change 2 CW parties will be prominent no matter how a GWF gets buffed or dungeons changed to favore the GWF play style. Not without a change so drastic that players are forced to break the normal mold and try new things. And that all players are informed about this change and not just the Forum browsers.
Post edited by farfig1337 on
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Comments
It's a common problem in MMOs.
Not sure what you think will be a true solution.
Overall I'm saying that GWF are great for bosses, because they can shred armor, and you can spec them into somewhat tank or dps. Somewhat meaning they're not best for that role. CW are the ones taking out Adds, because that's their role. Some people say that GF just isn't that good end-game, because DC can tank. I'm not sure because I've only heard some rumors like that from some friends. I think they're great though because they can support and aggro. If anything just get all the classes together to form a party.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?371562-It-would-be-funny-if-this-didn-t-happen-to-me&highlight=funny
seems to be the person playing it
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Given that the OP is talking about PvE only and those threads are PvP, I am not sure what your point (if any) is.......
In PvP, they are unstoppable (pun intended) monsters if geared, spec'd, and played correctly.
i am on 12.5k GS, 2pc AOW, 2pc Vigilant, Champion Berserk main and off hand, even with cat companion..
and sadly to say, GWF ain't welcome in most parties at all..
and whats more, even if i did get into one, in the middle of a boss fight while clearing adds, my tab would be bugged and then die..
might give the party the impression "bloody hell, invite you into party already very good, still cant take care of yourself."
oh well.. all i can say is, us GWFs now are really kinda in a desperate state..
Running with GWFs is viable, no one is disagreeing with that, however, it's not optimal. Your group last night would have been more efficient, faster, and over-all better quality running 2dc/2cw/tr 2dc/2cw/tr dc/2cw/tr/gf, and so on. Like i said, using a GWF is viable, but you gimp your self bringing one as they really don't bring any use to a party with the current state of the game.
This can be a problem in general. Just using Singularity and then shield to push the adds all over the map greatly reduces a GWF DPS, and also means the tank has to get them back together. Its especailly annoying when, as a GF, you get the mobs that have a cone AOE positioned so that they are facing you, only to have to do it again. Whats a much better tactic for the CW's is to use singluarity, adn while it is pulling them in, pop the shield out to build AP, and then letting the adds get dumped into the GWF AOE meat cleaver.
It seems that since you can level to 60 in no time at all, players get there and really dont have the greatest understanding of how to 1) play their class effectivey, and 2) how their skills and powers can best work within a given party. I like the GWF's I have in my guild, and they are a big help when running dungeons.
I ran Mad Dragon the other day with a CW running this build:http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?337592-((T2))-Thaumaturge-SPEC-POWERS-ROLE and had a GWF in the group. Between the CW pulling the adds in, and his AOE debuffs, and the GWFs skills, adds melted like they werent even there.
GWF are fantastic in PvE & PvP. Good GWF's are always welcome in my party's and do great AoE Damage as clear trash & boss add's like a pro.
Let the CW round them up with Singularity & the GWF burn them down, while the GF Tanks Boss/elites and lets the DC heal everyone.
And it seems your a fanboy of GWF, the OP was stating that yes they are somewhat viable, but as has been stated on so many **** threads just bring another CW. What you are describing is gimping one class to make another viable, you want the CW to do nothing but be a prop for the GWF, when in reality they can do the same or MORE damage than the GWF ( no 5 target cap with diminishing returns per extra mob) so if you bring 2 CW you will have a smoother and easier run than the GWF who has to have a dedicated CW prop up.
Know what happens when the DC dies during the fight? Party wipes
Know what happens when the CW dies during the fight? Party wipes
Know what happens when the TR dies during the fights? Party wipes on purpose because boss takes to long
Know what happens when the GF dies during the fights? Party has a good chance of wiping (depending on dungeon)
Know what happens when a GWF dies during the fights? Party finishes boss and loots chest. =(
You just keep spewing stuff you have no idea about man. Show us your logs from your GWF doing a tier 2 or 3. Whats your spec,i told you in another thread, you are doing something wrong.
Wut dungeon? My big concern ar ethe Dungeons, Epic Dread Vaults, Spell plague and Castle Never. Show me a vid of a party beating the final bosses of either of these two dungeons with 2 GWF's instead of 2 CW;s and you will prove your point. Other than that. 2 GWFs in easy dungeons like Karr, Priates or FH wont do much to sway anyone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfHOTlLc5dQ
:P
I cant agree with judicas
DC die > GWF sprint to revive > wipe if perma die
CW die > GWF sprint to revive > wipe if perma die
TR die > GWF sprint to revive > "ok u are solo at boss now, go ahead"
GF die > "someone died ? ok its just GF
GWF die > .... > nobody care
(this is how it looks when we go SP at 5 class, ofc 2x tr, 2x CW and DC would be faster but not so funny in my opinion )
to sum up, this is MMO if u find your group here then u will be more than welcome with GWF but for random groups u are just no needed class
you are both right and wrong.
you are right at lower gear and skill levels
you are wrong at higher gear and skill levels
any dungeon where the group utilizes the "knock off cliff" tactic, CANNOT base their argument on that dmg meter.
any hp left on mob when it dies off cliff, is added to the dmg total (on the meter) of the person who knocked it off, which provides a skewed result.
do a dd with a gwf (instigator or destroyer) and a cw (full aoe dmg spec) and if they are similarly geared and are both similarly skilled, the gwf will win in almost every case.
me personally: my gear is just alright, but i have beaten nearly every cw ive dd'ed with since the balance patch. the couple i havent, i was less than 10% behind them (and thats with they severely outgearing me AND knocking most of mobs off cliffs (which both cw's were with me in spell)
i have personally seen a gwf that more than doubled #2 at end of run in FH (he totaled at 33 mil) thats killing all trash with no cliffing
gwf are good right now BUT requires more gear and skill than any other class to succeed (with more emphasis and the skill)
the general NW community just takes pride in having cw's minimize gwf's dmg output to save a SMALL amount of time.
My gearscore is below 9k, dont se what the problem is. The more dmg dealt, the faster the runs in dungeons :S
Just fix your playstyles, when im running with another GWF i usually do 50-100% more dmg then the other GWF.
screenshot or it never happened, our guild runs dungeons with 1 of each class, all are properly geared. Our GWF never and I mean never gets top at damage. That could only mean that your party has crappy equipment.
Here is 1 of our SPCav Screenies (bloated damage, should be just around 12m or so but this time we ran with a PUG CW that doesnt fit our playstyle so we suicided once @boss fight when she died), you're right with the immovable object part, our gwf always gets 2nd place in that, next to me ofc.
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