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Thanks for ruining PVP
capgarnas
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 500 Bounty Hunter
I don't like to be harsh but this is a joke.
I play PVP a lot.
Now PVP is dead to me. Every single game goes like this.
1 player afk cant kick. Team knows they are going to lose and get no glory-1 person quits, the rest leave.
1 player bot cant kick. Team knows they are going to lose and get no glory- 1 person quits, the rest leave.
Team doesn't zerg 2 and gets rolled - 1 person quits, the rest leave.
One person Dc's - 1 person quits, the rest leave.
My team is winning the other team leaves.
Yay much fun to be had.
I play PVP a lot.
Now PVP is dead to me. Every single game goes like this.
1 player afk cant kick. Team knows they are going to lose and get no glory-1 person quits, the rest leave.
1 player bot cant kick. Team knows they are going to lose and get no glory- 1 person quits, the rest leave.
Team doesn't zerg 2 and gets rolled - 1 person quits, the rest leave.
One person Dc's - 1 person quits, the rest leave.
My team is winning the other team leaves.
Yay much fun to be had.
Post edited by capgarnas on
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Comments
If they add an afk/quit penalty then people just won't PvP at all and queues will be quite long OR they will AFK which was the problem to begin with. If they revert the no glory for a loss change then they still need to figure out how to keep people from afking. If they decide on a system that is based on points then you have the giant class balance issue that they only seem to make worse. Obviously that requires a point system and class balance overhaul. However, that still won't completely solve the root causes of afking. People will afk when there is no chance of winning and that comes from both extremely poor class balance and absolutely no matchmaking. 12k GS premades vs 7k gs pugs are not fun. That means we need matchmaking so both sides have a chance to win. Bots will still be present though because they will adapt to the anti-afk rules, this requires a report function to at least provide a negative consequence where there is currently none.
All of the above is a lot of work and it's not like PvP is currently in decent shape so they can take their time fixing it. Cryptic released a knee-jerk mechanic change and only made things worse. Basically, this shows how incredibly incompetent Cryptic developers are since they implemented such a poorly designed PvP system to begin with and then put out a thoughtless fix.
One of the larger issues right now is the TTD (Time To Death) ratio is just completely whacked. This is an issue that games serious about PvP do a good amount of testing to get right. In this game its so far gone and broke it will take serious work to get it right. To put it simple...people just die way to fast. Plus there is no diminishing returns on CC abilities which breaks the PvP is so many other ways.
In an effort though to be helpful and give suggestions rather then just be critical...I will point out things I think need to happen sooner rather than later in order to get the PvP back on track and people enjoying it overall. Now note....some of these things I suggest...the current rogues in particular that are ruling will hate. They like being able to go 18-2 in a match by 3 shotting people.
- When Clerics enter PvP remove the -40% self healing penalty. (or at least cut in half)
- When all players enter PvP give them 20-25% more health.
- Add a 5 second CC immunity timer after someone is cc'd.
- Undo the Glory penalty to losing team or at least give 50% of it back.
- Add a "Vote Kick" system to PvP. If even one person votes "No" including the person being voted on deny it.
- Nerf the Rogue "Stealth Invincibility Build" that is being used alot.
- Tone down GF dps in PvP. They should be survivable not top dps.
- Add Ranks/Levels to PvP. Just something to work towards.
- Add new 10 vs 10 PvP map that is a bit OVER double the size of current ones.
- Add Score items that encourage Clerics. Life saving +25 etc
- Add another set of PvP armor that is BoP from vendor that is again...something to work towards.
- This other set can be just a hair better stat wise then current one but make it have cool unique look.
- Add a PvP vendor BoP unique mount (buy with glory)...110% speed. Make it expensive if you have to.
- If within the first 30 seconds of a match a team drops below 4 players then reset people to spawn start and refill.
- Add a end score glory bonus for top healer, top assists, top defender etc
- For level 60...make two brackets. GS 8000 and below....8001+. If people queue as a group ignore GS and place in higher bracket.
Those are just off the top of my head. I wont bother to explain all of them but to most Im sure they make sense towards the goals of increasing the TTD, rewarding Clerics for playing and healing, having goals for players to work towards in PvP and so on.
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I agree that a bracket system is crucial, but how do you solve the problem of people entering with green gear and immediately switching to T2 once they're in? Short of having the game analyze your inventory and determine your best possible gear score among all the things you're carrying (which is a terrible idea imo), I think a simple GS check wouldn't work at all. Instead, I think the brackets should be based on recent performance somehow (but the devil's in the details of course).
This is how it worked in a few other games I've played and the outcomes were very reasonable. It kept over-geared players from ROFLstomping the "****" tiers for essentially free rewards and kept under-geared people out of top tier.
Yes, it does require some coding-fu beyond what Cryptic is displaying recently, however.
I dont think we need a GS bracketing, as I've realized sometimes GS means nothing in PVP. I play a cleric and has any other cleric here tried using Blues with Regen and def pumping your regen to 1200. I've seen it from another cleric and his GS was only 9k compared to my 10.9k GS he seemed to be tougher than I was. So i tried it myself and I was surprised.
Depending on the situation i change gears and spells from either Damage/debuff dealing (high prophet set for debuffing, coupled with my terrifying debuff and breakspirit, To tanking mode (regen gears and HW or FF depending on type of enemy), or simply full heals if I have a really good tank that knows what he's doing.
I will give you that maybe the glory system isn't the best but. If you PvP a lot which I PvP a lot its pretty easy to get 5-10k glory in a day so who really needs it anyways. Just kill a lot and enjoy.
Bad solutions *shaking my head* What is the point of an auto regroup if the other team is miles ahead in points by the time the queue finds a replacement? If it were I that joined a game already in progress because the group kicked someone and I were the replacement, I would leave immediately, either way you would be one less during the whole time the game tries to re-queue a replacement. Therefore, these solutions solve nothing, rather, they reinforce the problem it was intended to solve.
It's one thing to think, it's another to analyze where the thought process may potentially lead.
It's possible the auto regroup feature you mentioned, since very little detail was provided, stopped the PVP match until a replacement was found. However, I infer: since it is meant to work along side the vote-kick feature that this feature was meant as a filter pre-match start and a scape-goat for under preforming "team" members.
Without at least 900 points the glory reward is not even justifiable for the losing team. <-Ah the problem right there
I like your suggestions overall. The biggest atm is Rogues, CW & possibly Clerics need some sort of balancing in pvp. At lower tiers GWF & GF are just terrible. At max level it gets a bit different and I know every says no company balances for lowbie pvp but I think the starting abilities really need to be buffed or rearranged for GWF & GF. Right now they are the red headed step child of pvp.
It's actually quite simple. You do "Max GS Achieved ever" meaning. Once your GS goes up to a point it never drops below that point. So once you put on an T2 item you are forever locked to the T2 arena. Those who have never equipped something might get 1 uber game by going in wearing nothing and then swapping but let's be fair most people get one piece at a time so their GS goes up slowly. Very few people are crazy enough to hold all of their gear till they've got a full set just for 1 awesome OP feeling game.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Campaign: The Battle of Neverwinter - NWS-DOQXFA4ZD
Prologue: A not so simple plan - NW-DCJG75B9D
I agree with MOST of what you have said but a few changes noted below:
"When Clerics enter PvP remove the -40% self healing penalty." - This should be removed 100% of the time. The purpose this was intended for is no longer valid.
"When all players enter PvP give them 20-25% more health." - I think a flat reduction of crit % and crit severity would solve the problem you are looking to solve... Buff base damage of at wills by 10-15% and reduce base crit for all classes and reduce crit severity by 25% flat base. I think they are currently at a multiplier of around 1.75? so tone it back to a crit = 1.5 base, then you can add your added crit severity. Its not flat damage that is OP, its the massive crits and high crit chance you can get.
"Add a 5 second CC immunity timer after someone is cc'd." - NO, but a dim return would be good.
"Undo the Glory penalty to losing team or at least give 50% of it back." Glory should ONLY be rewarded based on contribution. reduce "points" for EVERYTHING and add glory for everything. You assist in a kill? +5 glory. You KILL? +10 glory. You cap a point? +20 Glory. You win? +50 glory extra...
"Add a "Vote Kick" system to PvP. If even one person votes "No" including the person being voted on deny it." In a double AFK game, how will this be determined, I think if you just add the glory system above and my comments below it will solve this.
"Nerf the Rogue "Stealth Invincibility Build" that is being used alot." - This will hopefully be done via the crit severity issue, also perma stealth needs to be nerfed.
"one down GF dps in PvP. They should be survivable not top dps." - This isnt a huge issue honestly. only a really geared GF can roll pvp and most GFs are specced DPS, leveling a GF is a HUGE pain cause their 1v1 damage is SO low until higher levels. Reducing crit severity will do a TON to nerfing their damage output.
"Add Ranks/Levels to PvP. Just something to work towards." - A ranking system is a HUGE +. My thought was to just create a "moving average" of the average points per game... To mesh with the glory reward system earlier, it would be the same, just lower numbers.
"Add new 10 vs 10 PvP map that is a bit OVER double the size of current ones." THIS 100%! And a 3v3 would be cool too.
"Add Score items that encourage Clerics. Life saving +25 etc" This 100%! If a cleric heals over 50% of someones life, they should get credit for any kill that player makesi n the next X seconds too, basically if the cleric heals over X% of life, they get credit for anything that player does, like they did it, in the next x seconds...
"Add another set of PvP armor that is BoP from vendor that is again...something to work towards." this 100% Add T2 PVP items that cost 50k glory+ per piece. They should be geared towards survivability a little more than damage but close to on par with current T2 sets.
"Add a PvP vendor BoP unique mount (buy with glory)...110% speed." not 110% but maybe 80% but impossible to get knocked off or something. Only available in PVP games as well....
"If within the first 30 seconds of a match a team drops below 4 players then reset people to spawn start and refill." Dislike this, I think the Que system should just auto fill if someone drops. You could get put into a pvp arena with 10 seconds left, or not... Either way Que back up.
"Add a end score glory bonus for top healer, top assists, top defender etc" dislike, if you just add glory per thing, itll fix this.
" For level 60...make two brackets. GS 8000 and below....8001+. If people queue as a group ignore GS and place in higher bracket." Good idea but easily manipulated. If you que with bad gear then swap how will that work?
TO FIX AFKs/QUITTERS:
If anyone leaves the PVP match, they are still "tied" to the match and cannot req until the match is over... This will encourage them to stay. Also ONLY giving glory per thing accomplished in the game will SEVERLY reduce AFKers. I dont think it will be a huge issue if glory is only awarded per thing accomplished. Also, in order to ensure this, the cap areas MUST BE CLICKED ON to cap it you cant just stand there, you have to click it and THEN stand there to get credit.
Nice idea, a max GS achieved is a GREAT way to fix that. Then add the bracket although it should maybe be 8500 as the dividing line.. Also GS needs to be reworked because as it is now, it stinks! I dont have a solution for this one except maybe just reworking the GS system... As a full G tene/ gPF/SF Stalwarts GF with all rank 7+ enchants and ancients set, I have a 12k GS. I was in a karr run last night with a GF who ran PVP gear/lesser enchants no armor enchant and was using rank 5 enchants and had a higher GS than me... I know Stalwarts is low GS but its BiS gear so.... Also huge points should be awarded to gearscore based on enchant type.. a Rank 7 is a HUGE cost difference over a rank 5 and the GS should reflect that. Maybe more points awarded for enchants than for actual gear? I feel like even BiS gear with no enchants should be under the 8500 GS mark... Then enchants are what bring you up above 8500...
Thanks I just reread what I wrote and I don't think I explained what I meant clearly enough so going to add a slight revision to it here. The way I see it it should be per slot not a blanket total.. So for example the head slot has a Max GS achieved and so does each other slot. That way it's harder to trick the system. But yes enchants should count more toward the GS because some crazy enchants can take a lower GS armor and make it wayyyy more powerful than a poorly enchanted higher GS item.
Pretty much all of this yes. Very good observations and suggestions. My one difference is I think PVP reward mounts should work anywhere.. Speaking of mounts please for the love of sanity give us a mount tab to our character UI panel like companions.. End the mount space waste in banks and inventories.. That is already very very low.. And PS please add a few bags to the founder pack.. We paid you for your game please please please let us have some more bag space thanks!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Campaign: The Battle of Neverwinter - NWS-DOQXFA4ZD
Prologue: A not so simple plan - NW-DCJG75B9D
I have no problems with rogues being invincible doing dmg, nor do I care they "once in awhile" one shot me.
Righteousness should be completely removed from Clerics all together, its stupid..
GF's should not be doing so much dmg, sorry dudes..its true, your a tank. You shouldnt be critting for 14k+, if you want dps, go make a dps class.
Diminishing Returns absolutely need to be introduced into PvP, stun locking, is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, it makes for mindless playing, no tactics involved, everyone just Chokes or knocks down right away burning all the CC they have. Its silly
PvP Gear - PvP gear needs to be just that,..PvP gear, I want resistances, health, defense, ..Gear, with PvP stats. As it stands right now, I am still doing a ton of PvP..but for not reason other then because I'm waiting on friends to do CN. Theres no reason to continue doing PvP, I've got somewhere around 40k Glory, and no reason to spend it on anything, other then my PvP pots.
We need bigger matches, more people, larger maps, differant maps. They dont even have to be larger(although we would love larger maps), we just want more. The same 2 very tiny maps, of zerging middle and chasing the other team around capping towers is god awful boring.
How about Capture the Flag? Not sure what its called, but a match where 1 person on each team is the "goal", like you have to protect this person, killing this person awards alot of points, dieing makes another person on the team the "goal".
Longer PvP matches, like checkpoints in Battlefield, that would be ****ing awesome!, An offense, and defense type match.
To sum it up
Diminishing Returns
Removing Righteousness from Clerics
Larger, more, and differant types of PvP maps
Reducing dmg on GF
PvP Rewards that fit PvP; I.E Gear, maybe instant rez scrolls on a 5 minute CD, Pot buffs that last through a pvp death etc
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Campaign: The Battle of Neverwinter - NWS-DOQXFA4ZD
Prologue: A not so simple plan - NW-DCJG75B9D
That max GS achieved is a great idea, wished I had thought of something similar. However, I think it should be used as priority: meaning that the game tries to match you with others of the same tier so there are consistent competitive pvping.
In a sense, yes, a T2 pvp player would be locked in that tier.
However, if the possibility arises that the game can't match you with your tier due to lack of other same tier players queuing~etc. I think a secondary system that matches approximately cumulative GS could certainly supplement this already great idea.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Campaign: The Battle of Neverwinter - NWS-DOQXFA4ZD
Prologue: A not so simple plan - NW-DCJG75B9D