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Feedback: Keeping the Core Players Here
cipher9nemo
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
First, I would define "Core Players" as those who will keep Neverwinter's community and servers active long after the gamers who hop from one new MMO to the next have left. It doesn't matter if they're hardcore, casual, hater, or fanboy. Anyone who is part of the community and actively participates in Neverwinter over a long period of time could be defined as a core player.
And before any flames I'd like to remind the community that Cryptic reps have welcomed feedback...
Well, here's my feedback. I start with a question: what should Cryptic do to ensure Neverwinter has a long, prosperous life?
I'm sure we all have varying view points to answer that differently, so I'm not going to say my view is any more important than anyone else's view here. And I'm sure Cryptic/PWE have had their executive meeting(s) to strategically plan for Neverwinter's financial success. Regardless of all of that, in the end we need to look at not only the history of successful MMOs but the history of Cryptic and how it applies to Neverwinter.
This post is not referring to us as players right now, rather individuals who will be around tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, and so on. The core players who will be here through thick and thin, rain or shine. I'll admit, I don't know if I will be one of those players. It depends on what Cryptic does and how they progress with Neverwinter, which is why I post this.
I'll echo the mantra Steve Ballmer of Microsoft used to chant: "developers, developers, developers".
Ballmer's Developer chant songified...
Some developers will continue to churn out new content and updates over time. An older example would be WoW, and a more recent example would be GW2. But with games like Neverwinter, we have a community of authors willing to generate free content for the game.
Related Examples
Bioware's Neverwinter Nights. What helped NVN1 last for so long? User-generated content (UGC). Without that community of content authors it wouldn't have survived nearly as long. The tools were a nightmare to learn, but gave the core players of NVN1 a reason to continue for years and years. Even my gaming community (guild) was on-board for NVN, back then and through even to this year when we had a mini revitalization.
Cryptic's Star Trek Online. The Foundry made an appearance in STO. Some, including myself, argue it was too little too late. But I'm certainly glad it eventually arrived. It has helped to pull an otherwise EOL game out of the graveyard.
And one final example, even though there are so many, Runic has been keeping its Torchlight 2 community going thanks to the GUTS editor. It does both content and mods, thanks to it being available as both a single-player and multi-player game either across a LAN or the Internet.
Today
So we're now on the fourth day of no Foundry tools. If we had all of the Neverwinter server(s) offline for four days, how much hate and rage would we see on the forums? Compare that with just the trickle of rage and hate for the Foundry tools being offline. And what does that tell us? That Foundry authors are more patient? That they'll be around no matter what direction Neverwinter goes?
I'm not going to answer that. Each of my fellow Foundry authors here can answer that on their own, rather they agree with me or not. Just remember it's not the answer that's important. The question itself has for more weight.
Our core players might be those who are and have been investing time and money into Neverwinter, or it might be those sitting on the sidelines waiting for the new-MMO-crowd to leave. It might even be a completely different group of users than those here on the forums right now.
So Cryptic, don't you think supporting that core group is at least a priority? Can you identify that group?
Just remember that this isn't about downtime for the Foundry tools. Much more importantly it's about mutual respect and understanding in that you give us free tools and we give you free content. The Foundry seems to get the back seat to exploit fixing, the AD/zen market, gameplay balancing, etc., etc. The patch history is proof of this. It seems like Cryptic launched the tools then dropped it. Perhaps the neglect led to this position we're in now of currently broken Foundry tools?
I for one would like to see a genuine push by Cryptic to supportits authors. Better searching, better rating system, better in-game incentive for playing Foundry quest, better Foundry tools, more Foundry resources (details, sounds, NPCs, encounters), offline access to just the editor, non-linear progression functionality, and the list goes on. The Foundry community has been asking for all of this and more, repeatedly. So where is the support and encouragement by Cryptic on this? It might not matter how long it takes, so long as we know Cryptic plans to continue to work on the Foundry to support its Neverwinter community.
TLDR
Who do you think will be around feeding the game three months from now? Six months? A year? Any group that creates, shares, and plays their own content has a lot more invested than just game time. They've helped build a community. Whatever group of users answers true to these questions should be encouraged and supported as a priority.
The only alternative I see an MMO than burns bright and fast, then flickers out just as quick.
Thoughts?
And before any flames I'd like to remind the community that Cryptic reps have welcomed feedback...
ambisinisterr wrote: »However we would gladly welcome feedback on how to improve he game without pulling out the 'I Quit' card.
Well, here's my feedback. I start with a question: what should Cryptic do to ensure Neverwinter has a long, prosperous life?
I'm sure we all have varying view points to answer that differently, so I'm not going to say my view is any more important than anyone else's view here. And I'm sure Cryptic/PWE have had their executive meeting(s) to strategically plan for Neverwinter's financial success. Regardless of all of that, in the end we need to look at not only the history of successful MMOs but the history of Cryptic and how it applies to Neverwinter.
This post is not referring to us as players right now, rather individuals who will be around tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, and so on. The core players who will be here through thick and thin, rain or shine. I'll admit, I don't know if I will be one of those players. It depends on what Cryptic does and how they progress with Neverwinter, which is why I post this.
I'll echo the mantra Steve Ballmer of Microsoft used to chant: "developers, developers, developers".
Ballmer's Developer chant songified...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMU0tzLwhbESome developers will continue to churn out new content and updates over time. An older example would be WoW, and a more recent example would be GW2. But with games like Neverwinter, we have a community of authors willing to generate free content for the game.
Related Examples
Bioware's Neverwinter Nights. What helped NVN1 last for so long? User-generated content (UGC). Without that community of content authors it wouldn't have survived nearly as long. The tools were a nightmare to learn, but gave the core players of NVN1 a reason to continue for years and years. Even my gaming community (guild) was on-board for NVN, back then and through even to this year when we had a mini revitalization.
Cryptic's Star Trek Online. The Foundry made an appearance in STO. Some, including myself, argue it was too little too late. But I'm certainly glad it eventually arrived. It has helped to pull an otherwise EOL game out of the graveyard.
And one final example, even though there are so many, Runic has been keeping its Torchlight 2 community going thanks to the GUTS editor. It does both content and mods, thanks to it being available as both a single-player and multi-player game either across a LAN or the Internet.
Today
So we're now on the fourth day of no Foundry tools. If we had all of the Neverwinter server(s) offline for four days, how much hate and rage would we see on the forums? Compare that with just the trickle of rage and hate for the Foundry tools being offline. And what does that tell us? That Foundry authors are more patient? That they'll be around no matter what direction Neverwinter goes?
I'm not going to answer that. Each of my fellow Foundry authors here can answer that on their own, rather they agree with me or not. Just remember it's not the answer that's important. The question itself has for more weight.
Our core players might be those who are and have been investing time and money into Neverwinter, or it might be those sitting on the sidelines waiting for the new-MMO-crowd to leave. It might even be a completely different group of users than those here on the forums right now.
So Cryptic, don't you think supporting that core group is at least a priority? Can you identify that group?
Just remember that this isn't about downtime for the Foundry tools. Much more importantly it's about mutual respect and understanding in that you give us free tools and we give you free content. The Foundry seems to get the back seat to exploit fixing, the AD/zen market, gameplay balancing, etc., etc. The patch history is proof of this. It seems like Cryptic launched the tools then dropped it. Perhaps the neglect led to this position we're in now of currently broken Foundry tools?
I for one would like to see a genuine push by Cryptic to supportits authors. Better searching, better rating system, better in-game incentive for playing Foundry quest, better Foundry tools, more Foundry resources (details, sounds, NPCs, encounters), offline access to just the editor, non-linear progression functionality, and the list goes on. The Foundry community has been asking for all of this and more, repeatedly. So where is the support and encouragement by Cryptic on this? It might not matter how long it takes, so long as we know Cryptic plans to continue to work on the Foundry to support its Neverwinter community.
TLDR
Who do you think will be around feeding the game three months from now? Six months? A year? Any group that creates, shares, and plays their own content has a lot more invested than just game time. They've helped build a community. Whatever group of users answers true to these questions should be encouraged and supported as a priority.
The only alternative I see an MMO than burns bright and fast, then flickers out just as quick.
Thoughts?
Post edited by cipher9nemo on
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Comments
Thanks. I'm glad I'm not alone in those thoughts from the OP.
Part of me wants to scream with frustration at Cryptic, while the other part wants to try to do as much as possible to help build our core group in whatever small part I can such as creating Foundry quests. From the community as a whole to fellow authors to my own fellow guild members.
And then there's the nagging worry that Cryptic/PWE may choose to repeat their history and charge Foundry authors for updates.
But then I see the amazing quests our authors have made and published along with their positive reviews and it almost makes it all worthwhile.
Hammerfist Clan. Jump into the Night: NW-DMXWRYTAD
This is one reason why I have not joined a guild yet, who knows when any of the new one will fold. I would rather spend the time learning the game, and building the perfect character for each class.
Good point. And I'm sure there are countless others in your shoes too since they might not be active on the forums near launch.
Hammerfist Clan. Jump into the Night: NW-DMXWRYTAD
I cannot agree more. I have avoided guilds in this game as I made that mistake too many times in the past to see the guild die slowely and then the time I put into it was wasted and could have been better spent.
I have created one character of each class myself and am enjoying learning their pros and cons. Also i am trying to learn every crafting skill across them to really get to grips with the game.
The foundry is the future of this game as that allows us to fully enjoy our characters as we build them up. For this game to succeed I agree that the foundry authors are the going to prove to be the future of this game as they will be here when the others have gone to wow, gw2, etc again and are complaining about neverwinter to tehir guildies.
Those PVP fanboys who yell and scream about balancing this and that will leave when they cant get what they want, just as they have with every MMO out there. Unfortunately by then the devs will have tinkered with the classes so much the game has lost its character. I sincerly hope that this game stays clear of that sort of thing.
I am happy to invest in this game, and I buy zen to get a few items and support the game. Since starting playing this game I have abanded all other MMO's. I intend to get into foundry creation myself once I am confident with all the games little quirks. Thats assuming the game doesnt get warped into a clone of some of those pther games out there.
However, the foundry is the single thing in game at the moment that will offer longevity. There is no competition to the foundry currently coming or coming in the known future from other developers. The fact that it is drawing only some players is a problem as it should be tied directly into the core gameplay.
I don't have time to play a bunch of video games (at work now waiting for files to copy), so otherwise, no reason for me not to spend my time playing Elder Scrolls Online or whatever else might be out in a few months that I happen find more entertaining.
No loss to me either way.
Yep. I do so agree.
In fact, the foundry should be where a majority of their attention is set. This is because, realistically, it is the only aspect of the game that only involves two player elements: the guys who want to exploit the foundry for easy exp and loot and the developers who create legitimate quests. As the nature of these player elements will NEVER change - people looking to exploit will always be looking to exploit (duh) - it is possible to fix this (a good fix) once and have it work forever. Every other aspect of the game has too many volatile elements to them to fix and balance so easily, thus, the Foundry should be done FIRST.
The foundry needs to be reworked pretty heavily, though mainly just in the details. Aside from more flexibility on loot, rewards, and even custom sounds, the foundry needs failsafes in place to hinder efforts to make "speed dungeons" for exploiting.
There's a lot of work to be done. If it GETS done, then this game could become the next WoW, or more...
Cryptic and PWE have provided the basic world/mechanics, initial classes, starter 1-60 content and a basic end-game. In the future, their job should be to provide more classes, regular modules, new classes, ongoing balancing, and world-events: in essence, the stuff that players can't create for themselves.
Above and beyond that, though, they should recognize that their model (as I perceive it, at least) is one that depends on the Foundry more than anything else, and (as the OP said) a core group of players. All the people who are here for an end-game instance grind, all the PVPers who are yelling and screaming about balance - all of them will be gone in a few months, because they'll never find what they're looking for, here.
Their main focus - and darn it, they should be unapologetic about it! - should be on making the game as easy as possible for the Foundry to take center stage. Making it easier to find quests, making the Foundry the most awesome darn tool that anyone's ever seen for player created content. That should be their long-term plan, and that should be where most of their resources go. Second come things like modules, balance, and so forth. Even things like end-game instance runs should be replaced long-term with elite Foundry missions.
I love this game, I've had the most fun playing it since I started playing MMOs with UO, and of course before that PnP role playing. As much as I love it, it's sub-par as an MMO... if you set it against games like Rift or GW2 and you assume that it's trying to do the same thing they are. Let go of that idea and it's got loads of potential.
My problem is that I don't think the devs get that (I hope I'm wrong). I think that they're lost in the loud voices that are trying to turn their attention towards making new PVP content, or better instance grinding. That's the wrong direction, because that's not the road they've gone down.
If they stick to the model they've built, I think the game has the potential to have a solid, ongoing base of players that build it together. And all that time? We're "living" in the economy that they've set up, paying for it, and doing a lot of the work to keep it going!
Come on, Cryptic and PWE! See what you've got!
(God, I'm such a fanboi for this game! BTW I'm also not blind to the problems - I just like what I think they're trying to do an incredible amount and think that they can pull it out if they don't lose focus).
I don't think this is going to make the game last for years, more official content on a regular basis will. That's just not MMO enough and won't make shop sales. If you want to complain about technical issues the devs themselves can't solve faster you may also make a shorter rage thread.
Rewards should only be marginally worse than offical content, if at all. People will just speed run / exploit the "production" content in the most efficent way they can find over and over till they get burned out anyways.
Correct. And not all who gripe and moan are people who'd write the "I quit" threads or move from one game to the next every couple months. I've had my fair share of complaining on the forums too. But the community I have in mind when writing this is the community who's involved in the game, from multiple guilds who're dedicated to Neverwinter or even from Neverwinter Nights, etc.
Good luck with that.
As for the "fan fiction", I'm not into that much either. I enjoy a good storyline, but honestly I'm much more interested in the gameplay experience of Foundry quests. If you know where to look you can find them. And when I release my first quest you might find I focus on that more than story. But to each his own I guess.
Hammerfist Clan. Jump into the Night: NW-DMXWRYTAD
Too bad the Foundry dungeons has crappy rewards compared to the in-game T2 dungeons / Castle Never. If they gave us good rewards for completing Foundry dungeons without letting the dungeon creators use it as a tool to exploit and gear people up too fast, then more people would actually play them. But as of now, I don't know of a single person who does Foundry dungeons because there is no incentive to do so.
That's a genuine question and I think only one cryptic/PWE can answer. The response may or may not be the one you like. It could evry well be "develop an initial glut of stuff, then drop the game completely". It might very well be that we never see any further devlopment after gauntelgrim.
If the foundry allowed us to make our own properties (houses/buildings/gardens/smithy etc) for individual players and bigger ones for guilds
i would be willing to pay a subscription fee for that, so we can show off our hoods.
im imagining.....we could hunt monsters, loot them and put up trophies on the wall (like a BEHOLDER HEAD!?!?!!) and other players would come in and be like
"wow"
id stay for that
I'm a long time Neverwinter Nights 1 player and hope to also be a long time Neverwinter player.
Player made content and a dedicated community will keep this game going.Cryptic will need to pay much attention to module makers.
QFT. That's one thing I'd like Cryptic to change: give Foundry quests reasonable rewards. One possibility is to have the rewards similar to the amount of time it took players to complete (average, not individual).
Apples and oranges. "Core players" just means a devotion of time to the game/community. It has nothing to do with Zen or spending real money. Without a core group of players server activity would seriously dwindle, organizing PUGs would become challenging, and Foundry quest creation would slow to a trickle. All of that would spell a reduction in the number of people giving Cryptic/PWE money.
So in short this isn't about Zen or real life money, it's about what sort of community will keep Neverwinter active and interesting.
Hammerfist Clan. Jump into the Night: NW-DMXWRYTAD