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NWN PvP no longer has a point
torrifico
Member Posts: 9 Arc User
PvP in any game, whether it is a FPS or TBS, there needs to be some kind of meaningful rewards system for the player in order for them to keep playing.
1. Competition (i.e, personal achievements such as titles, rankings and fame)
2. Currency (i.e. money, gear and perks)
* Note that Socializing would be a reasonable third option but this is not something the game itself can do anything about so I am not including it for discussion
Competition
The challenge of competing against another person is something that is ingrained in our species. From the ancient games played by the Greeks and Romans to the last poster in these forums congratulating himself on his performance in Castle Never, competition and the desire to win is an overwhelmingly human desire.
However competition needs to fulfill same basic human emotions in order for it to feel worthwhile
1. Destruction (i.e. "The Bully")
2. Overcoming odds (i.e. "Rocky")
3. Defeating someone with equal resources (i.e. "The Champion")
At this stage in NWN the disparity in classes and complete lack of a ranking system only permits the Bully to exist. Rocky has no chance because of a) people give up game quickly when they are losing b) if you are under-geared, have poor latency or are simply a bad class you will be destroyed.
In order for there to be champions you firstly need some way to rate the players. In order for the title of champion to mean something the competition needs to be a level playing field. Imagine if there were golf drivers that cost $1 million but drove 200y further, or golf balls that always went straight but cost $100,000 each. Some player could simply not be able to afford them but would stand virtually no chance against less skilled player who could. Welcome to NWN pvp.
Now not everyone can be a champion but a rating system give everyone something to aim for. A minor league team can aim for the major league; or someone with a rating of 1500 can aim to achieve 1600. It is a system that permits competition between huge numbers of people, and more importantly supports Rocky-like moments.
I would also like to point out that historically it is Champions that take out Bullies.
Currency
Currency in any sport has been controversial but few can deny that these days the biggest reason fro taking up sport seriously is to make money, whether it is football or esports we see people getting paid.
Not obviously not all of use can get paid but if a game offers pvp and the tangible rewards are worthwhile then at the very least we will give it a shot and do the best we can.
In NWN the rewards have been:
1. 4000 Astral Diamonds for doing the pvp daily, however you don't need to win so just join up
2. Glory which can only be used to buy pvp potions (no point if you're not competing), a pet (which is just poor) and gear which you can sell for Astral Diamonds.
Once you have capped your pvp gear thats it, pvp serves no point other than the 4xAFKs you do a day
Why NWN PvP no longer has a point
Before the recent changes PvP mostly served the following purposes
1. It quickly geared PvE people to T1 level
2. It rapidly geared up alts
3. It provided Astral Diamonds at a reasonable rate when you did your dailies
Consider the recent changes
1. Less Glory for fast matches
2. Less Glory for losers
3. PvP gear will be BoP
All three of these hurt farming bots, with the third option pretty much killing them. So now all the Glory earning reductions do is take the initial gearing up of fresh level 60s longer so more of them may switch to dungeons, which is actually not a bad thing if their primary goal is pve.
However if you have all the pvp gear then what point is there in doing pvp?
I honestly feel that pvp was added to the game because "all MMOs have it" and because it was perceived as an easy add-in (i.e. Create maps, add players, done) rather then a genuine attempt to provide a real game for pvpers (for the record I almost feel GW2 went the other way).
NWN pvp is like a half-baked cookie made a pastry chef who didn't want them in the first place.
1. Competition (i.e, personal achievements such as titles, rankings and fame)
2. Currency (i.e. money, gear and perks)
* Note that Socializing would be a reasonable third option but this is not something the game itself can do anything about so I am not including it for discussion
Competition
The challenge of competing against another person is something that is ingrained in our species. From the ancient games played by the Greeks and Romans to the last poster in these forums congratulating himself on his performance in Castle Never, competition and the desire to win is an overwhelmingly human desire.
However competition needs to fulfill same basic human emotions in order for it to feel worthwhile
1. Destruction (i.e. "The Bully")
2. Overcoming odds (i.e. "Rocky")
3. Defeating someone with equal resources (i.e. "The Champion")
At this stage in NWN the disparity in classes and complete lack of a ranking system only permits the Bully to exist. Rocky has no chance because of a) people give up game quickly when they are losing b) if you are under-geared, have poor latency or are simply a bad class you will be destroyed.
In order for there to be champions you firstly need some way to rate the players. In order for the title of champion to mean something the competition needs to be a level playing field. Imagine if there were golf drivers that cost $1 million but drove 200y further, or golf balls that always went straight but cost $100,000 each. Some player could simply not be able to afford them but would stand virtually no chance against less skilled player who could. Welcome to NWN pvp.
Now not everyone can be a champion but a rating system give everyone something to aim for. A minor league team can aim for the major league; or someone with a rating of 1500 can aim to achieve 1600. It is a system that permits competition between huge numbers of people, and more importantly supports Rocky-like moments.
I would also like to point out that historically it is Champions that take out Bullies.
Currency
Currency in any sport has been controversial but few can deny that these days the biggest reason fro taking up sport seriously is to make money, whether it is football or esports we see people getting paid.
Not obviously not all of use can get paid but if a game offers pvp and the tangible rewards are worthwhile then at the very least we will give it a shot and do the best we can.
In NWN the rewards have been:
1. 4000 Astral Diamonds for doing the pvp daily, however you don't need to win so just join up
2. Glory which can only be used to buy pvp potions (no point if you're not competing), a pet (which is just poor) and gear which you can sell for Astral Diamonds.
Once you have capped your pvp gear thats it, pvp serves no point other than the 4xAFKs you do a day
Why NWN PvP no longer has a point
Before the recent changes PvP mostly served the following purposes
1. It quickly geared PvE people to T1 level
2. It rapidly geared up alts
3. It provided Astral Diamonds at a reasonable rate when you did your dailies
Consider the recent changes
1. Less Glory for fast matches
2. Less Glory for losers
3. PvP gear will be BoP
All three of these hurt farming bots, with the third option pretty much killing them. So now all the Glory earning reductions do is take the initial gearing up of fresh level 60s longer so more of them may switch to dungeons, which is actually not a bad thing if their primary goal is pve.
However if you have all the pvp gear then what point is there in doing pvp?
I honestly feel that pvp was added to the game because "all MMOs have it" and because it was perceived as an easy add-in (i.e. Create maps, add players, done) rather then a genuine attempt to provide a real game for pvpers (for the record I almost feel GW2 went the other way).
NWN pvp is like a half-baked cookie made a pastry chef who didn't want them in the first place.
Post edited by torrifico on
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Comments
I agree that rookies really have no chance when facing premades and it's even worse for them when people spawn camp.
As of now, pvp is just for fun and improving your skills (however irrelevant it might seem in this game).
Also, the champion definitely exists. Check out my thread over at the combat/gameplay section.
Nice post
Dragon Guild
Earning glory to buy PvP sets in a reasonable amount of time certainly made PvP worthwhile.
Also selling PvP items for AD/gold/whatever also made it it worthwhile.
Of course neither of these things is going to be possible soon.
The point to PVP is to beat the enemy team, when you say PVP no longer has a point, what you really mean is PVP no longer has an incentive/trophy.
"Beating the enemy team" is pointless in this game where there's always a bot, afk'er, or leaver that unbalanced teams and makes it so that one side can easily overwhelm the other. Not to mention the gear imbalances at 60, which these horrid PvP reward policies only make all the more prevalent.
Exactly! Pre-AoS Ultima Online is the most skill based PvP MMO there is and there was no points to be gained for defeating players. It was to see who was better. If you want to chase big shiny things stick with PvE I guess.
Or a more realistic suggestion, go find another game to play. Which is exactly what people will do.
If the PvP in this game was "skill-based", instead of gear-dependent and filled with bots, then maybe you'd have some sort of point. But it's not, and you don't.
There is no reason PvP players should be told, "You don't deserve rewards", while PvE players are told, "Hey, here's all the coolest stuff in the game! Enjoy!" Obviously PvE should offer better rewards, as it did before the June 13 patch, but PvP should still be rewarding in some sense. Otherwise you're just spitting in the face of the people that enjoy playing it.
I will say that it is obvious that PvP had no real intent in this game. Battlegrounds are just a diversion, as PvP has no place in the "outside" world in NW. I have been pretty disappointed that all games have not really seen the fun of PvP and have not supported it in the Open World.
Battlegrounds can be fun, but they are transient. 15 min or so and poof. It's really a lot more fun to have something like Castle Sieges that you battle for ownership and that ownership for 1 or 2 weeks gives you great perks. Worth fighting for. It also creates the need to have a guild and establish political positions and work them. It is a great venue for meeting and making and keeping friends. I miss Lineage II for that reason alone.
Sell gear? Not anymore! Glory is now even more useless. I don't know why the are on this "bind on acquire" kick. They even marginalized crafting even further with the bind on craft <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> for reinforced bracers.
Per the testing patch notes glory items will bind on acquire.
Yep, it's certainly what kept me coming back to PvP. Accidentally, along the way, I have become a better PvPer. However, I was only ever playing it for the ability to collect gear for alts, so they could be good to go when they dinged 60.
A cynic might notice that the PvE purples, which are still mostly BoE, can be bought on the AH, though, for AD.. which promotes Zen sales. PvP gear could also be sold, but a lot of people just earned it for alts, with no money changing hands- unforgivable.
Ironically, I was considering making a TR alt, and started gathering the glory to gear it up. While reducing the IWIN potential of the class doesn't put me off one bit, stopping me being able to kit it out quickly and cheaply like this does. I may as will just slowly gather AD from drops and improve the enchants on my existing characters.
Hell, doing it this way, I would even do duels on my cleric and cw and love it. Its much more a showing of actual skill, ability and more in 1v1 fights, than it is, in 5v5's where there are bots, afkers, skilled people, and terrible clueless people, and undereq'd people.. and cashers.
There are some ratings out right now, but its player driven, and by opinion of specific people.
but there is nothing official, etc et al.
With these matches also, I would say there should be no rewards, at all, it is for ratings competitions..
and quite likely those with specific ratings and higher could partake in tournaments, where ad is the prize. THAT is the incentive to do dueling and competitive pvp.
not like gauntlgrym where it is a game of a mass of bodies against a mass of bodies, or 5v5 where it may not mater how good you are, or tactical etc, if you have a bunch of incompetants on your team, you lost anyway.
rocky exists.. they are often the people taking 3 on, sacrificing themselves, but holding against those 3 for a long time for the team to face better odds of winning 2 other nodes. They are the champions, the reasons teams win often.
25k glory is 63g. I can do pvp all day long if I dang well pleased, did nothing else, and got rich from it. bought things like coal wards with the gold, and sold on ah for ad. Granted I wont get ad as fast as dungeon delving, but hey. I really cant stand the time dungeon delves take, especially CN.. so on that note, pvping all the time.. worth it to me.
this is something written in this thread:
1. Less Glory for fast matches
2. Less Glory for losers
3. PvP gear will be BoP
All three of these hurt farming bots, with the third option pretty much killing them. So now all the Glory earning reductions do is take the initial gearing up of fresh level 60s longer so more of them may switch to dungeons, which is actually not a bad thing if their primary goal is pve.
None of these hurt farming bots. they are going 24/7. by the time their owner logs the char in 24 hours later, they have 25k glory no matter what. they sell their glory for 63g at the shop, and boom, botting again.
By the time you reach level 60, if you have been doing pvp, you should have reached somewhere around 40k glory in total by then, with most of that glory gotten from level 50-60.
The last thing I want to say.. if in pve you are made of paper, die fast, but do damage, that is exactly what is going to happen in pvp.
If you can handle yourself well in pvp, use tactics, and fight well, then that is what is going to happen in pve. There is no differences between the two.
In other words there is no separation of pve and pvp as far as gearing and balances. Use different skills? if you want, honestly you do not have to. I can go into a pvp match on my gf with my aoe skills slotted and do **** nice (tested and confirmed). For kicks I took my gwf into a match, using mighty leap, no so fast, and roar. 3 skills that do little damage but odd effects, and I got a kick out of it.
enemies didn't though.
Hearing constantly of differences between pvp and pve, there is none. The only thing is in pvp is ofen you are forced to hang alone on your own merits. In pve you more likely have your party living and helping you.
that is all.
I do not miss lineage 2. all the healer bots for the people just to raid a castle. most wins being whichever side has the bigger mass of bodies. And a greater majority of the pvp was a group of people walking onto a lower level leveling group and slaughtering them, because they couldn't possibly fight back.
I want pvp, not stupidity.
I do agree that that was ONE of the main reasons, but killing someone and taking all their loot and items, even if you didn't need them was very satisfactory. That is the shiny economy side to pvp in UO t2a pvp. ipy3 google it if your interested in UO.
Can't have the roses without the thorns, sadly.
This game is so frustrating. It's like they created an MMO that's actually fun to play, but designed everything in it for the sole purpose of crippling the in-game economy and forcing you to spend cash. Which is fine, I guess; it is a business. I just don't see how this is supposed to be fun or create a long-lasting game.
you know. before the patch I got 1050 glory + bonus for a win at level 60 during arena pvp times, and 700+ bonus during non arena pvp times. I get it after too at level 60. This also happens after the match.
The glory gains change was minimal, and largely set to being time dependant (15 min getting max bonuses to rewards, rather than there always being a max by that scaling.
What it affects are the 5 minute matches where your team rolls over the other, and game is over in less than a minute, and you only have to wait 4 more or so for the time to run out.
For good matches, the glory is the same as it was before. It is a better design, but failed to do as it had intended.
Aww, you cant sell glory gear, something that sells for 2-4k ad in the auction house because so many people did it? btw buying poions from the shop and selling them back, was worth 63g. can get a key currently for 40, which is worth 4x the ad than you had gotten in the ah. At least now even though keys will raise prices, you still get MUCH more ad from doing it this way, than you did using the ah. It didn't cripple the economy at all, just crippled the people who couldn't think.
Also didn't force me to use cash at all. I never have, and almost garaunteed never to, especially on this game where cryptic cannot help themselves breaking something every time they try to fix something.
This is to another poster : making reinforced items doesn't make it worthless. It just means if you want one for your class, you have to earn it now.
well I do miss L2 and I have to say it doesn't sound like you ever played on private servers. Retail was a joke, because all the things you mentioned were true. On Private servers, they actually took the time to ban bots and my clans/alliances consistently rolled zergs.
- JailBreak (in development)
I'm guessing you don't realize how much AD can be made in PvP via buying stuff with Glory even in pugs.
I enjoy PvP, but the huge incentive to me to play beyond they Daily 3 ( yes it's 4, but always works out to 3 for me) was the Glory. I've made enough AD to buy most my Shadow Weaver set, 110mount, and other things.
Oh, and I am a CW without any high end enchants yet, who mostly pugs pvp--sure there are premades that will wipe the arena with your team...but there are also a lot of more balanced matches, and I've beaten overgeared pug teams simply because they do not understand domination.
No glory means that I won't pvp as much for sure.
Then go play other games lol