Re-work?

deheezy · June 2013

So our class gets some "huge" changes. And what i understood to be the point of these changes where to balance PvP a bit (30k Opening SE was pretty hilarious) and to remove our dependance on Duelist Fury. Well after running my parser for a bit today the tragic conclusion is they essentially failed at what they set out to do for the PvE side of our game. When reviewing the parse 80% of my damage came from Duelist Fury with 48% being from the bleed 38% coming from the actual attacks themselves. With the rest of the 20% being encounters (LB and WR or DS).

So my question is, why shift numbers around to make things the same? PvP has changed in a way but the dungeons are the same. I don't notice much as all my parses are withing +/- 400 damage. :rolleyes:

solsol1337 · June 2013

They nerfed the damage of the executioner spec in such a way that it's on par with a Scoundrel using Duelist's Flurry. But the base problem is still there: Duelist's Flurry is too strong and everything else is way too weak (in PVE).

kaelon79 · June 2013

Duelist fury should be strong it is a risk reward ability with a long multi-part animation and should be well worth it to use.

The real issue is Cryptics obvious over reactions. Duelist Fury crit severity feat was bugged, fixing the bug is the only change that was needed but instead lets do that nerfing its damage then nerf it further with slowing the dots and the lowering the number of stacks. That is not balancing a skill that is taking a hatchet to it. Astral shield is another prime example of the same exact issue. Then on the other side is GWF who needed a boost in single target dps since their aoe was more than competitive already but instead they get boost to all their damage aoe and single target making them the new flavor.

Here is a hint when you make a change you test that one change and see how it affects things and tweak farther from there not jump 10 steps and let it fly because the only landing that occurs is another crash and burn mmo.

solsol1337 · June 2013

There is a difference in "rewarding" a skill due to a small amount of extra difficulty, and just making the skill so strong that all other options are terrible by comparison. Duelist's Flurry is still too good in comparison to every other skill in the game for PVE. Even as a scoundrel with the 10% buff to flourish damage, Flurry is still almost twice as good in terms of damage, even after the nerf.

The *only* benefit to using Flourish is that it's easy. And also it is not RNG in that there is no bleed that you have to make crit to be effective. So you are gaging reliability against vastly more damage.

senseijohn · June 2013

You may stop talking now... you defeated your own argument.

solsol1337 wrote: »

Duelist's Flurry is still too good in comparison to every other skill in the game for PVE.

The BALANCE is that is sucks in PvP. Hence... it IS in fact balanced, since it is fairly worthless in 75% of game content - yeah... I said it. Hitting 60 takes all of 2-3 days. Farming dungeons in DD takes up a few hours a day. That means, the bulk of your time as a level 60 is most likely going to be spent in a PvP area - after the 20th.

That's what certain people of limited processing ability aren't getting about the classes... most of the stuff IS balanced... but it's balanced on the BIG PICTURE... not their microscopic view of the world!

I don't remember hearing TR's whine that they can't heal themselves (cleric)... or have tons of long range attacks (mage)... or have heavy armor and shield (GF)... or have good armor and AoE (GWF)....

Honestly.... this using a a nerf bat instead of a nerf scalpel reeks of any real vision or ability to enforce their vision. Which will eventually lead to either a change in management... or a mass exodus.

hann1bal13 · June 2013

DF is still pretty disgusting in pvp. Now, a lot of that is because there are some silly people out there that don't understand how bad an idea it is to ever stand still during pvp. However... there's a lot of CC in this game and getting one full DF on someone when my other stuff is on cd is what turns an even team fight into a complete route. Yes, it is difficult to land, but I always take this over SF.

I also find it absolutely ridiculous that your argument is essentially "something can be really good in pve as long as it's bad for pvp". I *do* spend most of my time pvping, but that's because pve is really boring. My only concern is 1) Get lucky and get a crit bleed rolling right away w/all my buffs 2) Do not let that bleed drop off. That is not any type of endgame that will sustain me. It's boring. If I wanted combat to be simple, I'd be a hack and slash fighter type.

iroas007 · June 2013

So what do you guys think? Will they evaluate and do a real balance or leave it as is. As i have been gaming for over 30 years I have seen time and time again the quick fix is just nerf it and visit the issue later on. Which leaves 2 possibilities. 1) You will whine for about a month or so till you get tired and forget about it..so will they or 2) they actually will do their own real testing and find out the truth about difficulty vs reward on that move. Either way it always seems to be the stealth/rogue classes that get the honor of DAS NARF! first! we'll see what happens.

solsol1337 · June 2013

Saying that difficulty of use balances a skill is ignorant as all hell. If WoW has taught us anything over the years, it's that people are good enough to abuse a broken mechanic. Making it harder to do is not a balance, it's just a glass ceiling over the heads of mediocre players. Which is to say it makes the average player have less fun since the good players can quite literally do things that they just can't. MMO "balance" is making all the various mechanics work together well, and timing your ability use well. It is not having one skill that is immensely better than every other skill that is slightly harder to use in pvp.

tmpempty · June 2013

senseijohn wrote: »

You may stop talking now... you defeated your own argument.

The BALANCE is that is sucks in PvP. Hence... it IS in fact balanced, since it is fairly worthless in 75% of game content - yeah... I said it. Hitting 60 takes all of 2-3 days. Farming dungeons in DD takes up a few hours a day. That means, the bulk of your time as a level 60 is most likely going to be spent in a PvP area - after the 20th.

That's what certain people of limited processing ability aren't getting about the classes... most of the stuff IS balanced... but it's balanced on the BIG PICTURE... not their microscopic view of the world!

I don't remember hearing TR's whine that they can't heal themselves (cleric)... or have tons of long range attacks (mage)... or have heavy armor and shield (GF)... or have good armor and AoE (GWF)....

Honestly.... this using a a nerf bat instead of a nerf scalpel reeks of any real vision or ability to enforce their vision. Which will eventually lead to either a change in management... or a mass exodus.

THIS NEEDS TO BE POSTED AS A STICKY IN EVERY MMO FOURM /clap

tmpempty · June 2013

solsol1337 wrote: »

Saying that difficulty of use balances a skill is ignorant as all hell. If WoW has taught us anything over the years, it's that people are good enough to abuse a broken mechanic. Making it harder to do is not a balance, it's just a glass ceiling over the heads of mediocre players. Which is to say it makes the average player have less fun since the good players can quite literally do things that they just can't. MMO "balance" is making all the various mechanics work together well, and timing your ability use well. It is not having one skill that is immensely better than every other skill that is slightly harder to use in pvp.

this is an ability where your opponent literally has to move two steps to get out of... not a triple shatter cold snap/pom combo...

solsol1337 · June 2013

The people saying the difficulty of use is what balances it are the ones saying it's hard to use, not me. >.>

Re-work?

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