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IDEA: Dungeon Difficulty = More Mobs/Adds?
ayroux
Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
Problem:
Currently Difficulty is determined by just a TON of adds. Both in clearing the dungeon AND in the boss fights. This causes people to skip as much as possible in dungeon runs, and exploit as much as possible during boss fights.
Solution:
Reduce the Quantity of mobs but increase the quality... AKA Make there be much less mob pulls but each mob is more difficult (more HP, more dmg, more "red" to avoid").
This will create more synergy around groups, less of "pull and throw off something" and also removes SOME of the repetitive nature of dungeons.
Boss adds should either be OVERKILL but with super squishy mobs, or have super tanky/DPS mobs but only a few of them...
Thoughts?
Currently Difficulty is determined by just a TON of adds. Both in clearing the dungeon AND in the boss fights. This causes people to skip as much as possible in dungeon runs, and exploit as much as possible during boss fights.
Solution:
Reduce the Quantity of mobs but increase the quality... AKA Make there be much less mob pulls but each mob is more difficult (more HP, more dmg, more "red" to avoid").
This will create more synergy around groups, less of "pull and throw off something" and also removes SOME of the repetitive nature of dungeons.
Boss adds should either be OVERKILL but with super squishy mobs, or have super tanky/DPS mobs but only a few of them...
Thoughts?
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
"eros1986 :
or decease the amount of useless trash, add something more than a **** 5 copper and a green rune to the loot table making people actually wanting to kill them instead of spending 20 silver just to avoid that huge pile of @"
This is exactly the entire point of this... Adding possible loot tables to mobs would also increase the reason for people to kill trash. Honestly I would love it if they just made it so each dungeon has a set loot table and ALL mobs could drop from that loot table just at a low % while bosses have guaranteed slots. This gives reasons to farm. But also reduce the amount of mobs... Pull after pull isnt hard, just annoying and WHY people like to find glitches.
I actually would rather have a few less red zones to avoid but a little less time to do so.
Right now the reaction times can be slow and easy because the mobs all take a second or two to do each action which is fine and dandy when you are getting used to the controls but at higher levels the only solution to making it trivial is to greatly increase the number of mobs.
I would rather see the number of mobs reduced, rate of attacks increased and the duration of CC effects reduced/less effective.
A bit Off Topic - At level 60 I expect to 1-2 hit goblins but have to face 10-20x the number of goblins. The tankiness of some creature is a little shocking IMO, haha. Right now the difficulty scaling is too standardized in my opinion and should be more race diversified.
I expect gnolls to be fewer in number but much more formidable than goblins. I expect goblins to be far more numerous but less formidable. Right now it seems like they are equivalent which is a bit incorrect in terms of lore.
This is exactly what I am talking about. The number of mobs should be inversly related to how difficult they are. I want to feel like I am in an epic dungeon fighting epic creatures that are hard. Each fight should be challenging and right now that is NOT from just more mobs. I want some tough fights that require synergy not just throwing them off cliffs because its easier.
Killing mobs with out a death would give a multiplier for things like gold or drops. Kill 10 mobs, get a 1.1, kill 20 get a 1.2 and so on. This multiplier would be applied to group, and by the time you are at the end, you have a multiplier that actually makes it worth while not to skip. If you can do a run with out a death, the group would special drops or gold ect.
This would be a lot better than now, where they just increase mobs to make it harder, and people just find ways to skip.
Each player would also get a ranking that would show the past 30 days of play. Groups who have a higher rank get access to Elite bonuses like more exp, gold ect. The stats would only last for 30 days, so you would have to stay active. This would give a bonus to those who have more skill and are active.
The rewards for killing trash mobs certainly play a role but at the end of the day players are skipping them more because they simply take a long time to fight which provides little challenge with the current mechanics.
They are, frankly, monotonous and challenge-less. Better rewards would help but the true issue is that they don't challenge players so without this challenge, both in and out of boss fights, players just don't want to deal with them. It ends up feeling like a chore.
I love the game but there certainly needs to be a bit more challenge and diversity brought in for standard mobs and for the adds in boss fights.
That is my point. Killing mobs only takes too long, because you dont get a lot for it. If the first mob only drops 100 coins, but the last mob in the run drops 100 x 10, it might become worth it.
Man we are cut from the same cloth or something. I think your right on point and I really hope this gets looked at.
Idea #1:
(and I dont know how it would work here) would be to adopt a different loot style. Give mobs chances to drop from the BOSSES loot table. Broaden the loot tables to more gear, set the boss to not have a guaranteed drop slot but a high chance at drop, this would encourage players to kill trash.
Idea #2 (I like this one). Give items rolls for each stat. If the current Item gives say 250 power. Let it NOW roll between 225 power - 275 power. Now, give mobs chances to drop gear but of the lower values (same loot table as the boss) but its a LOW chance, and give the boss he higher loot values.
Gives a secondary currency value (a weaker vs stronger version that is not a different tier) and also gives incentive for mob farming.
Just two ideas that might work...
Another idea is to start adding AD drops as part of the currency drop meaning players would start farming AD in dungeons as a part of mob drops. Bosses dont drop AD (just items) Mobs drop AD depending on difficulty... Make it so you can earn 5k+ per run or something and this will encourage more farming (but I am afraid wont fix the issue).
If you're running Epic Cloak Tower, expect goblins; not gnolls.
If you're running Pirate King - yeah, expect a rush of gnolls rather than a zerg of goblins.
If it's possible to increase the level of the goblins in Epic Cloak Tower rather than just the number of bodies - that might be nice.
I agree with this.
A couple thoughts I had:
1. Why not add some skill challenges that affect the boss or encounter in some way that changes the behavior? Maybe it's something like having a mage repeatedly using arcana on something to maintain a field of plague fire, which disrupts or eliminates adds? Or Dungeoneering checks to somehow alter the battlefield to your advantage? or a cleric that maintains a radiant field to hold back waves of undead? Combinations of skill challenges to really make it tough?
2. I'd love to see fights that have more randomized elements to them, kind of like how the ancient elder brain in the Dread Vault spawns a random 'avatar' that you must fight. What you could do to make that encounter even cooler though, would be to make it so the elder brain appears to teleport you somewhere random. Then you have to fight a random encounter, but it's really a fight in your own mind. Then, once you beat the encounter, you snap back to the fight with the brain having taken no damage (The brain takes some damage from having his mind assault defeated; damage depends on how many players 'survived' the attack).
Or maybe the pirate king drops a bunch of trap doors under everyone, so you have to fight in the hold of the ship?
Anything that changes it from just 'more adds spawn'.
This is what is needed. Different "phases or thing each boss does that makes it challenging. If your gonna throw a ton of adds, let it be apart from the boss.
Honestly 1 EASY way to do this is upon hitting each 1/4th percentage (75%/50%/25%) the boss leaves and you DPS down adds, you get X seconds and then the boss heals whatever adds are left (like spider where she heals and kills the adds) Then you DPS the boss down again to 50% and repeat.
Bosses need to hit like trucks too so there NEEDS to be a tank and tanks should be REQUIRED to use their block to tank.
You can throw a few adds during the boss dps phases that will just make it more difficult if you leave them for the boss phase shift since youll have even more adds making it a viable strat to leave the boss at 51% to DPS adds before summoning more adds.
Things LIKE this are what make bosses fun and challenging.
Also environmental things would be cool too, Things like during Pirate, having ropes you could cut and would "net" mobs when needed or something, or trap doors that could be use to "gather" all the mobs (too many to kill) onto the trap door and then open it killing off the mobs... Then DPSing the rest down...
You could also have environmental things to avoid (currently traps) that a TR would have to disarm or they could potentially do massive damage... A nonTR group would have to work a little harder to avoid.
Things LIKE this are fun boss fights...
All these good ideas like this is what would make dungeons at least the boss fights more enjoyable. Though it doesnt take all the much to do better than how bosses are in its current state already. At this point alot of things would be alot better.
The fact that it's possible to miss out mobs between bosses by exploiting a poorly designed terrain is ridiculous as is the fact that you can move some bosses to a location (campfire) where they have no adds. Just take out all the trash and beef up the bosses because the mentality in this game is... nothing matters but the boss drops and the DD chest.
"nothing matters but the boss drops and the DD chest." This is exactly what needs to be fixed. It should be FUN to clear dungeons. The only thing I can think to make it fun is not long drawn out fights with add after add (we only have SO many abilities so how much fun could it even be spamming for minutes at end)
Players like to feel like gods so make a TON of small squishy adds that are fairly easy to spam down for most of the dungeons with the minor exception of "Elite" Monsters who hit like trucks, you NEED to avoid the red zones, and NEED to actually be tanked by... oh i dont know... a tank?!
Environmental triggers are a HUGE win in my book. YOu can make unplayable content playable by adding things like pillars that fall and deal insane damage to adds, maybe places where adds ARE really tough and numerious and the strat is to pull them back to a pillar and crush the pillar ontop of them... This adds some skill/knowledge AND fun (imagine that!) into clearing.
It also lets players have the feeling of "exploiting" without actually exploiting...
You can do this with pillars, you can create stalagtites (?) on ceilings ranged DPS can attack and drop onto mobs for AoE damage.
This shouldnt be the ONLY thing in dungeons but it would sure pick up the pace and make it feel much more fun...
You could make collapsible/destroy able bridges where you can load it up with mobs and send them into lava, just dont be on it...
Diablo 3 had SOME of this and it really felt fun... Maybe it doesnt 1shot but just does good damage..
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?332212-Suggestions-Review-A-veteran-MMO-player-s-Opinion-on-what-NW-needs!
Also commented on the add situation. Currently it is ridiculous.
That's all good but what about people who live in say South Africa like me? Our latency is already bad so we can hardly dodge abilities from mobs already
I agree. Puzzles and traps are better than 200k adds that are a higher threat than a final boss!
The game could be awesome this way!
And please Devs, give a right reward at the end of all dungeon delve or skirmish. Make the run worthy. Use % valor to make every run "special". I mean: you can add 2-5% of finding "special" rare items or something like this.
Come one! There's so many ways to improve this good game. :-)