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Idea: Dungeon Delves retune
ayroux
Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
Problem:
Currently people almost NEVER run dungeons unless Delves is going. Why? Honestly, people have become spoiled at being GUARANTEED loot at the end.
If you do the math, an average group can get 2 runs with delves. so 2 good boss drops plus 10 more pieces of guaranteed loot...
A great farm group can get 4 runs in, so 24 pieces of end game loot. That is a LOT of loot to have dropping and people are already complaining about nothing to do unless the even is going on.
Solution:
Dungeon Delves needs to 1) run more often per day. Instead of cycling through every event. Figure out peak population times, and structure Delves around those times. Also add 2x the number of delves events but here is the catch...
2) Delves should no longer GUARANTEE a chest/drop for each person. Instead it makes the bosses drop double loot but bosses must be killed during the event. If the event ends and a boss is not killed it will only drop 1 piece.
What this does: Gets more people running dungeons more often (more to do). Reduces the amount of end game epics hitting the economy. Gives players a TON of incentive to to Delves. Also gives an urgency to do delves...
This will negate SOME prelcearing since you will lose the benfits of delves on the "mini bosses" and also prevents people from starting a dungeon during delves with 1min remaining.
I would like to point out a competent group SHOULD be able to clear anything in 1 hour (except CN). If you guys see fit, add another 15 min to the event so its 1 hour and 15 minutes... You can also broaden the loot tables of each boss to compensate for double loot.
Currently people almost NEVER run dungeons unless Delves is going. Why? Honestly, people have become spoiled at being GUARANTEED loot at the end.
If you do the math, an average group can get 2 runs with delves. so 2 good boss drops plus 10 more pieces of guaranteed loot...
A great farm group can get 4 runs in, so 24 pieces of end game loot. That is a LOT of loot to have dropping and people are already complaining about nothing to do unless the even is going on.
Solution:
Dungeon Delves needs to 1) run more often per day. Instead of cycling through every event. Figure out peak population times, and structure Delves around those times. Also add 2x the number of delves events but here is the catch...
2) Delves should no longer GUARANTEE a chest/drop for each person. Instead it makes the bosses drop double loot but bosses must be killed during the event. If the event ends and a boss is not killed it will only drop 1 piece.
What this does: Gets more people running dungeons more often (more to do). Reduces the amount of end game epics hitting the economy. Gives players a TON of incentive to to Delves. Also gives an urgency to do delves...
This will negate SOME prelcearing since you will lose the benfits of delves on the "mini bosses" and also prevents people from starting a dungeon during delves with 1min remaining.
I would like to point out a competent group SHOULD be able to clear anything in 1 hour (except CN). If you guys see fit, add another 15 min to the event so its 1 hour and 15 minutes... You can also broaden the loot tables of each boss to compensate for double loot.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
- more people would be on since DD was active longer and more often
- queues would/could be faster with more people on
- economy could maybe change due to this change
But also bad things about this:
-The main reason people do DD is because we are guaranteed 1 piece of loot. If you take that away then people are going to complain because now they have to fight for ALL of the gear. In doing so, there would probably be more people either needing everything, or trying to ninja everything.
- There is no way to counteract these kinds of people either because you can't just boot them and get someone who won't be a prick. If they are the healer then you are forced to deal with it or your run is over.
- Even without these kinds of people, you are still forced to get lucky with your rolls on the extra gear. And if you get nothing from the dungeon, especially if you were top dps/the healer/the tank, then it is really frustrating.
With dungeon delves the way it is, we can do it and get at least 1 piece of loot for ourselves. With this idea, there would be much more ninja-ing, more needing on everything, maybe a slight change in economy at the most, and last but not least there would still be those unlucky people who do DD over and over and get really unlucky and don't get anything. This would just cause another thread like this asking for another redo on the DD system.
Nope. Terrible idea, take it back to the drawing board.
What's particularly bad is the "finish event by the time delve ends or you don't get double loot", because the queue times are atrocious. In the end, running dungeons with a pug group would result in the dungeon delve ending before you kill the boss, and then everyone will just leave. Your suggestion is to basically make dungeon delves no better than running the dungeon when the event isn't on, and people clearly don't want to do that.
Ill lay this out for you bro.
The entire Idea of delves as stated is to encourage players to do the same things at the same time.
People complain because they no longer want to run dungeons without the delves event (its just not worth it in comparison) and delves doesnt happen often enough.
In order to increase the number of delve events and increase the duration (what people are asking for) you need to DECREASE the rewards slightly to make it an overall same effect on the economy.
If they double the number of delve events, they need to cut the currency hitting the economy in half. People should NOT be guaranteed loot each run. That is not how games typically work. ANY end game is going to be a farm for a chance at loot. This is the ONLY game I have played that will guarantee youll even get something at the end. (TLDR: Its making the game too easy)
If they broadened the loot tables, gave everyboss 100% more loot (each boss drops 2 items) That would be HUGE reason to do Delves. Now instead of having 4 boss + 5 item (delves) = 9 items per run, you STILL have 8 items per run... Think about that... BUT you have to KILL the boss to get the loot.
Now instead of having Delves every 5-6 hours, you can have it every 2-3 hours. Gives more people an opportunity to play.
You don't need to spell it out for me, I completely understand what you're suggesting. The problem is, your suggestion doesn't make running the dungeons more appealing than guaranteed loot does. People do not want to play the dungeons. That much is obvious. The vast majority of people do it solely for the guaranteed reward. If you introduce a system that in any way diminishes the chances of earning that guaranteed reward, then you're just giving people another reason to not do them. You seem to be under the impression that the community is full of people who love playing the dungeons but cannot because the dungeon delve event is making that difficult. The truth is that the dungeon delve event is the only way it feels worthwhile. You can talk about how standard it is in other MMOs to waste forty-five minutes to an hour of your time running dungeons just to end up with nothing to show for it, but the community has been spoiled. You can't go back now. No one is going to accept it at this point.
If your suggestion was implemented, I predict that the first time many people run a dungeon delve event and get nothing but green trash loot, they stop entirely for the day.
I see you changed your post after I quoted so ill address the second point.
You can EASILY finish 1 delve in 1 hour. I also commented saying you can increase the duration 15 min. Que times are not atrocious and THIS IS GETTING FIXED in 10 days (hopefully).
If delves is run more often, you have more opportunity to run them (which is what most people want).
Also, if you think about it. there are typically 4 bosses per run. EVEN if you couldnt do all four in the delves event, you still got DOUBLE loot from the previous 3 bosses, the only one you missed was the double loot from the last boss... I dont see how its a bad idea.
This also discourages group leaving because you cant just que up and "lock in" a delve group if you enter 1 min to the end of the event. You will stick it out because each boss drops double loot...
Think about it from a broad economy long term duration aspect and not just a "I want my loot now" aspect.
You do realize that even in delves people get trash loot... Getting DOUBLE boss drops means 8 pieces of loot per run... There are 5 total classes meaning you will MORE THAN LIKELY see atleast 1 drop pertaining to your class... chances are maybe even 2 or 3 PER RUN.
Yes the community is spoiled now, which is why they need to cut back a little. Its not delves is making it difficult, its that delves is guaranteeing drops so people leave groups and glitch dungeons all to get to the end for that chest. They dont care about clearing, they dont care about anything but doing the dungeon quick to get as much loot as possible. If you make people play the content for the reward, it will make it much harder to skip content and much more rewarding to DO content.
No longer is it "rush to kill last boss" for the chest... But lets kill all bosses for all the loot we can. If a group spends 25 minutes wiping and getting to the 1st boss, well insteado f leaving and GUARANTEEING a drop by requing up for a new delves, people will think "even if I re-q we only MIGHT be able to make it, I better stay here to get the double loot on boss 2-3"..
Also I have posted with a suggestion about making the dungeons more appealing to actually play. Currently its a mob grind so people hate actually running them, which is why that + this issue cause the problems there are today...
Well four minutes before your post, actually.
Maybe you're a cleric or something, and you find groups much quicker. I don't know. In my experience, even with regular DD, if a team wiped 2-3 times then the group just disbands. Now you want to take these volatile public group dynamics, and add in a time limit to the only reason they are running the dungeon in the first place. All this will lead to is a bunch of kids rage-quitting once the time limit is up.
A laughable statement.
What most people want is loot. They only want to run the dungeons more, to get a better opportunity to get at the loot. Decreasing the chances of getting the loot, is counterproductive.
I don't care about the economy. I thought this was about making dungeons more enjoyable. Is this really just another thinly-veiled thread complaining about filthy casuals getting their hands on epics too easily? I just can't even begin to care about that. If that's your issue, then that's fine. I don't personally share it.
It kind of defeats the purpose of doing the dungeon during the event. As the event and the rewards is what makes it appealing.
And Im definitly not of those people that only cares about loot. But even I can agree to that.
Also, they need to fix delves chests. I got a def/deflect neck+crappy ring from Spellplague DD chest.
I Qued up for a few epics and within 30 seconds went into dragon. Noticed we were paired with 3 CW 1 TR and me(GF).
I waited about 2 min to see if it would pull in a DC (after the CWs kept leaving) I decided not to wait and left too.
I then requed for Karr and Pirate (I think) and within 45 seconds Karr popped. Logged in to find a makeup of 1 of each class. We breezed through Karr in about 35 minutes giving us about 15ish minutes to run another. We Qued for spider and ran a second with the entire group and finished that in about 35 min as well. When we finished we were only about 15 minutes into whatever the next event was.
In total: Que times were almost instant, I am not a DC, We were easily able to run 2 dungeons and we had a total of 18 end game epics on roughly 1 hour. Now I got ALL <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> except a shield I used to remodel my current shield so no real benefit to me there, but the players we played with got some sick pieces of gear including T2 chest.
Now, two of the common issues I hear and experience for myself is:
1) If delves isnt running, I might do a few PVP sessions but I wont play the game very long (why would I).
2) We were able to get two full runs in via delves (which is fine) but we were all guaranteed loot. It doesnt take very long for casuals (like myself) to get BiS gear.
Why are these issues to the game? Well if people dont play when delves isnt going, pretty soon people will get geared and very bored. It is NOT a good long term game model.
Also, the same issue goes for spitting out thousands of pieces of end game gear into the economy during that hour. Players will all get BiS gear and there will be nothing to do very quickly.
To fix BOTH those issues they need to
1) Remove SOME of the delve benefit (less loot to the economy) and 2) run delve events MORE often.
How would you propose they do this?
The reason WoW was so successful is because there was ALWAYS more to do. I have maybe 5-6 days played and honestly have all BiS gear, I only run delves for fun because I like doing it and I too dont want it to be for no reason, I currently DO go for the chest.
I do it because there is NO reason to do dungeons unless the event is going on, which should NOT be how the game works...
FYI here is my profile http://gateway.playneverwinter.com/#char(Tempirius@ayroux)/charactersheet
Right now the DD event just provides WAY too much reward compared to a regular run of a dungeon. Outside the event a group gets pretty much 1 piece of useful equipment and during the event they get 6.
I think the appropriate way is to bring both of them more towards the middle. Event shouldn't be guaranteed, but outside the event should also be increased.
My Suggestion would be:
Activate the chest at the end all the time.
During the event each person gets ~50% chance to pull a class specific item.
Outside the event each person gets ~25% chance to pull a class specific item.
Chest also gives other rewards for completing dungeon (some silver, some enchants, some potions).
Numbers could obviously be changed to balance the event how they want...but I really think normal runs need to be boosted, and event needs to be toned down.
This doesnt fix the issue of the loot hitting the economy... Think about this fact, how long did it take you to get an "epic" piece of gear in this game? I had almost full epics within a few days of 60. In WoW (not the model but we CAN learn things there about its model) I was in full blues at 60 for a long time at vanilla (release) and the reason? Because Epics were freaking hard to get... "super rare" psh purples are COMMON!
I do think you nailed it though, "I think the appropriate way is to bring both of them more towards the middle. Event shouldn't be guaranteed, but outside the event should also be increased. "
I think the problem is that now the players have been spoiled and in order to reduce the amount of currency hitting the market, they have to change it for new stuff not on existing stuff...
If they did this, leaving the drops as is is fine, but the delves event should just add slight incentive to running (again I think double loot drops) would be fine. Heck even a double loot drop from the last boss alone would be fine... Think about it, TWO chances at your T2 dropping? I might even prefer that over delves chest... Give up the guaranteed loot because thats not how it should be BECAUSE it gives the spoiled effect on players... They demand loot per run...
Instead double loot while properly incentives to run Delves.. Running a non-delves doesnt feel like such a let down.
I think I'll cry because....
First of all +1 for making me laugh.
Second, if your crying about gear, its pretty easy to get gear. You can buy all T1 PVP epics in 1 day of farming which qualifies you for any T1 dungeon. You can then run T1 dungeons and within a few weeks get all T1 gear, and then run T2s. Then run a few weeks of that and youll have BiS gear...
Or you can play the AH and buy gear.
Or you can contribute to this company for the game your playing, FOR FREE, and buy a few pieces to expedite the process..
All in all, and MANY have said this, gear is a joke to get in this game. It is very easy. What IS harder is getting enchants which is not done by ANY drops but by getting drops, selling for AD and buying...
Anyways, the end result is the same. If you want longevity in a game, you need to have a game that has alot to do. If you give all your players all the best gear, MOST people will eventually quit. Your only hope then is to release an expansion fast enough to keep players happy. That is NOT a good business model OR a fun game.
When you get something good, it only means something if it is hard to get. THAT is what keeps players coming back to a game, that carrot on a stick... If you get the carrot, why run? But you SHOULD get nibbles here and there...
All in all, the biggest concern here is that delves makes non-delves runs SEEM pointless and very discouraging... Why? Because there is such a big gap between the two... Delves needs to be reduced and regular runs need to be buffed. Plain and simple...
And by "folks crying about not having gear." I mean the folks that don't have the enchantments or full 4pc broken t2 sets and nerfing delves and buffing regular runs would require that much more time suffering through the repetitive kiting/punting adds content that is epic dungeons to get the loot drop or loot sales to achieve their gear goals.
I honestly don't care either way. I just know that there are many different folks having parties and they are going to cry if they want to. My post was just pointing that out.
This is exactly why I have created another "IDEA" thread about dungeons need reworking to make them not boring... Its a 2 part problem.
1) People HATE running dungeons so it takes an event like Delves to get them to run, 2) people glitch/exploit the runs to get gear faster and FURTHER take advantage of an insane event like delves.
Both need to be fixed.
But let me ask you this. If runs were not just a push trash farm and actually had interesting things in them. If dungeons could be consistently fully cleared in 30 minutes without glitches, boss fights had actual mechanics versus just an add swarming. If they released the new gaunt dungeons with say 2.5 gear and the gear was BoP and there was no delve chest, would you run it? Sure you would! Because its the only way to progress. You would still do it and so would I. If they made the delve even THEN where the boss drops double loot would you run it? Again, more loot why not! Would you then turn around and say forget non-delves...
Well I think MOST players would run non-delves because its not a HUGE difference from delves... But its that two part problem of dungeons are NOT fun so people ONLY run for the loot. Delves gives too much loot to incentivise players to run crappy boring dungeons...
Think about it this way, if it takes GUARANTEEING you loot to run something... how bad must it have to be to run that thing if they will GUARANTEE you a drop FOR YOUR CLASS even!