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Forums > Home› Class Forums› The Library

Controlling Action

icupid69icupid69 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
edited June 2013 in The Library
When I first encountered this Feat, and read it's description my first thought was "What exactly is a Controlled target? "
Almost a week of extensive studies and reading of other people's insights I've learned nothing. All that only raised a million new questions. Here's what bothers me:

In game, the Feat is described as follows: "Gain extra APs when using powers on a controlled target".
Now, I might be dumb, or at least blind to obvious, but if you call me a "Control" wizard, and you give me a bunch of skills which in a variety of ways control the target's movement, then you put a Feat at my disposal promising me I'll be making more Action Points if I cast powers on a controlled target... To me it means (example for maxed Cont. Action) that I'll make 10% APs per Magic Missile, and 11% if stun/slow/freeze/daze/sleep/seal/whatever the target first.

Then I started to wonder, must I be the one controlling the target's movement? Can I just jump in on someone's action and hit already dazed opponent with a Mag.Missile and still be making my 11% APs from previous example?

Trying to figure that out around the web and guides and what not, brought up another question: "Am I controlling my target while it's being sucked in Black Hole? This might be far stretched, but the fact stands "The target's movement is in control of my skill".
There was much more in my head but I can't remember it all now so I'll move on...

By now I was completely lost and just in time to find out that NW Wiki has entirely different description of the skill to begin with: "Gain an additional 2/4/6/8/10% of your max Action Point when you cast a control power". This made much more sense to me as it rendered some of my previous doubts and concerns about this Feat, obsolete.

Then even more questions started showing up...
  1. Why the two sources of info on the Feat don't match?
  2. Why would Renegade guides (focusing on max dmg output over control, and arcane powers over Ice) even consider this Feat?
  3. Why don't I see the difference when testing with Chill Strike on single target and 10 mobs piled up?
  4. Why Shield yields the same result no matter if fired near frozen, slowed or uncontrolled mob. No change when tested on 10 mobs!

... ...

I guess all I want to know is still what started my jounrey days ago: WHAT in God's name is a controlled target in this forsaken game? :(
Post edited by icupid69 on

Comments

  • crystal892fcrystal892f Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 385 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Unfortunately I don't have answers as well, but I wanna thank you for your research and post and I hope that we CW's will get a better understanding of this Feat. Or a bugfix if it's bugged.
    But my idea for your 2nd question: faster AP gain = more dailies (Ice Knife) = more DPS
  • uniqueuseriduniqueuserid Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Glad I'm not the only one who this bothers immensely. I've been researching into AP gain and this bothers the heck outta me.

    Mind if I ask for the source of the 2nd info-spell-text? Cause I can test the first set no problem, but if this 10% bonus is when you cast a control power then the only way to test it is to respec, write down all the AP% then plug the feats in and do it again. The good thing it would then give you a list of ALL CONTROL POWERS since they would be the only spells you see if a difference in AP gain.

    Hmmmm... I'm gonna be monitoring this thread :)
  • rivetedriveted Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    A user on reddit used his 4-piece archmage set to test which skills were considered "control powers," and I integrated his list into the wiki. Since we don't know if each spell is considered the same way no matter if it's armor, feats, or another skill that wants to know if something is a "control power," I can't consider it a "definitive" list. In the meantime, I figure it's close enough.

    Chill Strike
    Repel
    Entangling Force
    Steal Time
    Shield (when exploding)
    Icy Terrain
    Icy Rays
    Shard of the Endless Avalanche
  • icupid69icupid69 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Nice to see others share my interest.
    uniqueuserid wrote: »
    Mind if I ask for the source of the 2nd info-spell-text? Cause I can test the first set no problem, but if this 10% bonus is when you cast a control power then the only way to test it is to respec, write down all the AP% then plug the feats in and do it again. The good thing it would then give you a list of ALL CONTROL POWERS since they would be the only spells you see if a difference in AP gain.

    Hmmmm... I'm gonna be monitoring this thread :)
    Second description of the Feat I found on NW Wiki. Notice it's the exact opposite of the description given in game. Also be sure you understand that 10 and 11% I was talking about were only nice round numbers I wanted to make an example on. Mag.Missile actually gives 1% of max AP per cast. I tested about a hundred hits in bursts of 3 shots and 1% came out as a constant.
    Aditionally I have some raw data on Chill Strike and some others. I could sort it all in a table if yall want me to and share my findings. Those might make sense now with this new perspective.
    riveted wrote: »
    A user on reddit used his 4-piece archmage set to test which skills were considered "control powers," and I integrated his list into the wiki.
    Couldn't find any pages with the list there. Mind shareing a link please.

    crystal892f wrote: »
    But my idea for your 2nd question: faster AP gain = more dailies (Ice Knife) = more DPS
    Yeah, I thought of it too, but I figured there might be better options in that area for a Renegade mostly because Arcane spells seem to hurt more and control less then Cold. But I'm prolly wrong there.
  • rivetedriveted Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    icupid69 wrote: »
    Couldn't find any pages with the list there. Mind shareing a link please.
    Original post: http://www.reddit.com/r/Neverwinter/comments/1fff5g/control_wizard_control_powers/
    Wiki: http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Control_Wizard#Epic_Armor_Sets
  • icupid69icupid69 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Oh ty very much kind sir. You actually embarrassed me there quite a bit :o with that wiki page which I've read over and over before.
    I guess I wasn't concentrated well enough..

    Anyway, now that we know some control skills we can do some testing, and I'll propose a cheap plan that includes no respec tokens. My Controlling Action feat is lev 4. I may be putting 5th point into it, I dunno. However, maybe someone with no points in there can do some testing with say Entangling Force or Repel? On one and/or more mobs/dummies? We could compare data here and figure out which of the two Feat descriptions is correct?
  • rivetedriveted Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    icupid69 wrote: »
    Oh ty very much kind sir. You actually embarrassed me there quite a bit :o with that wiki page which I've read over and over before.
    I guess I wasn't concentrated well enough..

    No worries, I only added it about 12hrs ago.
  • tyrtallowtyrtallow Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 747 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Chill Strike
    Repel
    Entangling Force
    Steal Time
    Shield (when exploding)
    Icy Terrain
    Icy Rays
    Shard of the Endless Avalanche
    This list is not accurate (or no longer accurate, the post is "old" by nwn patch standards).
    Icy Rays and Shard of Endless Avalanche are not considered control powers by the Archmage set.

    Based on the powers above I'm 90% sure a controlled target means a stunned/knockback-ed/frozen target (at least). However, it may simply be that the Archmage set only applies to certain powers because if it applied to powers like Ray of Enfeeblement (which is very likely a control power, based on name and function) then the set would be become too powerful. It's likely this was the reason why Icy Rays and Endless Avalanche were removed from the list in the first place.

    "Controlled target" could mean a lot of things though, since other classes do have several "control powers".
    You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
  • lemandallemandal Member Posts: 61
    edited June 2013
    1. wiki data may be obsolete it happens
    2. renegade use controls too ?
    3. base %AP gain is flat, only a few spells benefit from hitting multiple targets (entangling force, repel, shield pulse, maybe others I forgot)
    4. Maybe shield is already a control power and applies the feat no matter what ?

    Focal Magi set share the same definition of Control powers than Archmage (no icy rays though). Arcane singularity doesnt give any stack. Then not a control power ?
  • ap0stateap0state Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Double post. Sorry guys I got lost between accounts. :P
  • icupid69icupid69 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    The pull effect of AS is obvious and if we'd choose to go philosophical about it, that would be considered a movement control. Ice Storm has the same effect as popped Shield but no AP gain, I think we can guess no Daily Power can regenerate AP? But it was funny to notice how superficial somebody was while descriptions were written.

    On another note, Wiki page could be wrong or outdated, but in this example it makes more sense then the info found within game.

    Brainstorming is about ideas guys. There is no bad idea or wrong assumption. Every input leads towards a great result. So don't be shy. Let's hear more opinions. C'mon.
  • rivetedriveted Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    ap0state wrote: »
    On another note, Wiki page could be wrong or outdated, but in this example it makes more sense then the info found within game

    The wiki is a work in progress, based on whatever information I can find. I acquired the Archmage set yesterday, did some testing with it, and updated the list with what I found. If someone could do that with the High Vizier and Shadow Weaver sets, it would be appreciated.
    http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Control_Wizard#Archmage
  • uniqueuseriduniqueuserid Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    icupid69 wrote: »

    Second description of the Feat I found on NW Wiki. Notice it's the exact opposite of the description given in game. Also be sure you understand that 10 and 11% I was talking about were only nice round numbers I wanted to make an example on. Mag.Missile actually gives 1% of max AP per cast. I tested about a hundred hits in bursts of 3 shots and 1% came out as a constant.
    Aditionally I have some raw data on Chill Strike and some others. I could sort it all in a table if yall want me to and share my findings. Those might make sense now with this new perspective.

    Thanks, pretty interesting stuff.

    Going to have some results soon, a dear chum of mine who is a Guardian McShieldy Class has a feat that does 15% more damage vs controlled targets, so me and him are going to go through the stats effects to see what counts towards this (chill, frozen, daze, even blackhole has it's own icon).
  • kevlintallfellowkevlintallfellow Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I would say that anything that puts a debuff icon on the target, to indicate that it is under the effects of anything that controls its ability to act or move, would count towards the "against a controlled target" feat.

    Trample the Fallen should be a pretty easy way to spot things, since it spams big fat 0s over a mob if it's not under the effects of a control power, but if it's actually doing damage it will throw up lots of smaller numbers directly following each damaging attack from the guardian.
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