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Current Issues with GF Threat and Abilities
kenji1134
Member Posts: 8 Arc User
Quick bit of background about me. (Fair warning, wall-of-text INC)
I have been playing MMOs and tanking since about 1997. I have main tanked most of the endgame content in EQ2, Vanguard, Age of Conan, and RIFT. And I now find myself in Neverwinter, and seeing the same old tank problems rearing their ugly heads.
1A. First and foremost, a tank NEEDS to have at least one force taunt. One extremely strong instant aggro tool for getting a mob to go after you.
We currently have nothing of the sort. In fact, some mobs (undead hulks) often completely ignore our hate generating abilities altogether.
1B. As a general extension of the above point, a tank needs to have snap aggro. Right now we rely on our Marks to generate hate over time, and cause us to generate ~3x hate on marked mobs. However this is simply not enough to overcome cleric heal aggro (which often comes in bursts), or to pull off a dps who decides to unload.
More on marks later.
2. Given the sheer number of adds in the game, especially on boss fights, long cooldown abilities which hit limited targets (Enforced Threat, Frontline Surge) are simply not enough.
At 35 we can charge in and apply our marks in a small aoe using Threatening Rush, however the hate over time component is weak, so we now need to actively hit our targets to get some aggro going. But Rush hits one target, Frontline hits maybe 3-5 at best, and is kinda flaky, and Enforced has too long of a cooldown to be reliable.
The solution to this would likely be to GREATLY increase the hate over time component of Marks (and make them last a given duration, not fall off when you get hit). However this would likely mean removing the 3X hate mod for hitting marked targets, and let the marks themselves do the bulk of the work.
Another option would be to give GFs an buff that acts as a hate siphon. Throw it on your cleric, and lets say... I want to say 50%, but that would be too easy... 40% of their hate is transferred to you. This protects our siphon target somewhat, and makes controlling large groups easier.
A third option would be to "magically" make GF damage aggro apply in a large aoe, similar to cleric healing aggro. So as a GF, you hit a mob, you do say 300 damage. The hate caused by that 300 damage, say 300 hate, is then applied to ALL engaged mobs in a 30' range. Note, just the hate, not the damage itself. I am aware that this would cause geometric hate gain when fighting more and more mobs... so we would need to control ourselves and not overaggro the whole room.
3. Attacking and abilities while blocking.
We are all aware that blocking is finicky. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt, sometimes it looks like its up but it isnt... etc. My biggest gripe about blocking is that while you are holding shift, you cannot use anything but your blocking at-wills. (2nd biggest gripe is that marks fall off if not blocking)
This means that I need to drop my guard (potentially resulting in something hitting me and my mark on it dropping) in order to charge, aoe, apply more marks, anything...
It would be oh so great if we could somehow use at least our Encounter abilities while blocking, without dropping our guard. Heck, it would be even better if, lets say... "While blocking, all abilities deal 1/2 damage and generate 10x hate". Viola, hold block, you are now a tank with super tank aggro. Release block, you can go do some dps.
Got solid aggro on the pack of mobs? Release block, throw Frontline, Enforced, cleave a few times, and go back to blocking. This would add an element of finesse to the class, striking a fine balance between dps and hate/survivability.
Those are my thoughts for the moment. I imagine that my concerns are mirrored by the majority of the GF tanking community, and I am sure that the devs are aware of what needs to be fixed. Hopefully the coming combat rebalancing will pan out, and tanking will become the testosterone fueled bloodbath that it should be.
I have been playing MMOs and tanking since about 1997. I have main tanked most of the endgame content in EQ2, Vanguard, Age of Conan, and RIFT. And I now find myself in Neverwinter, and seeing the same old tank problems rearing their ugly heads.
1A. First and foremost, a tank NEEDS to have at least one force taunt. One extremely strong instant aggro tool for getting a mob to go after you.
We currently have nothing of the sort. In fact, some mobs (undead hulks) often completely ignore our hate generating abilities altogether.
1B. As a general extension of the above point, a tank needs to have snap aggro. Right now we rely on our Marks to generate hate over time, and cause us to generate ~3x hate on marked mobs. However this is simply not enough to overcome cleric heal aggro (which often comes in bursts), or to pull off a dps who decides to unload.
More on marks later.
2. Given the sheer number of adds in the game, especially on boss fights, long cooldown abilities which hit limited targets (Enforced Threat, Frontline Surge) are simply not enough.
At 35 we can charge in and apply our marks in a small aoe using Threatening Rush, however the hate over time component is weak, so we now need to actively hit our targets to get some aggro going. But Rush hits one target, Frontline hits maybe 3-5 at best, and is kinda flaky, and Enforced has too long of a cooldown to be reliable.
The solution to this would likely be to GREATLY increase the hate over time component of Marks (and make them last a given duration, not fall off when you get hit). However this would likely mean removing the 3X hate mod for hitting marked targets, and let the marks themselves do the bulk of the work.
Another option would be to give GFs an buff that acts as a hate siphon. Throw it on your cleric, and lets say... I want to say 50%, but that would be too easy... 40% of their hate is transferred to you. This protects our siphon target somewhat, and makes controlling large groups easier.
A third option would be to "magically" make GF damage aggro apply in a large aoe, similar to cleric healing aggro. So as a GF, you hit a mob, you do say 300 damage. The hate caused by that 300 damage, say 300 hate, is then applied to ALL engaged mobs in a 30' range. Note, just the hate, not the damage itself. I am aware that this would cause geometric hate gain when fighting more and more mobs... so we would need to control ourselves and not overaggro the whole room.
3. Attacking and abilities while blocking.
We are all aware that blocking is finicky. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt, sometimes it looks like its up but it isnt... etc. My biggest gripe about blocking is that while you are holding shift, you cannot use anything but your blocking at-wills. (2nd biggest gripe is that marks fall off if not blocking)
This means that I need to drop my guard (potentially resulting in something hitting me and my mark on it dropping) in order to charge, aoe, apply more marks, anything...
It would be oh so great if we could somehow use at least our Encounter abilities while blocking, without dropping our guard. Heck, it would be even better if, lets say... "While blocking, all abilities deal 1/2 damage and generate 10x hate". Viola, hold block, you are now a tank with super tank aggro. Release block, you can go do some dps.
Got solid aggro on the pack of mobs? Release block, throw Frontline, Enforced, cleave a few times, and go back to blocking. This would add an element of finesse to the class, striking a fine balance between dps and hate/survivability.
Those are my thoughts for the moment. I imagine that my concerns are mirrored by the majority of the GF tanking community, and I am sure that the devs are aware of what needs to be fixed. Hopefully the coming combat rebalancing will pan out, and tanking will become the testosterone fueled bloodbath that it should be.
Post edited by kenji1134 on
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Comments
I have run three dungeons in a row without incident for KV. I have also had it freeze up twice in the same dungeon. Fixing that would leave me perfectly happy with GF's threat mechanics.
Mobs like hulks aren't so bad, but that is because the players already know what to expect from that mobs behavior. If it is dangerous to leave those mobs alive in certain situations, then kill them first. They move and attack so slowly, though, that there is almost no point in killing them, and can be a waste to do so (Throne of Idris).
Problem is, even if we do become threat magnets does this make us wanted for groups, or provide anything people need in dungeons?
Some of the major things for non-conq. are obviously things like tenebrous. Counting on HP and mitigation for dmg to assist in keeping mob focus. Also the effectiveness of life steal --lifedrinke, too-- for keeping hate are things I need to see with my own eyes. Can I gain dmg threat and healing threat from it? Silly little things that will make all the difference.
As to being wanted for groups... every game has these issues. It is a player driven situation to decide which jobs are "best," but all content can be cleared by one of every job, so I support the job strengths and structures.
As for groups I dont want them to make us unique snowflakes that are "needed" in a party but as of right now the only "Defender" class in the game doesnt do much defending, and what we can bring to a party is largely considered unneeded. I do think things are a bit exagerated "Into the Frey" is a huge dps/CC boost on any run and we do have other abilities just as usefull.
I also dont think that throwing buffs at us left and right is nessisarily the correct path to "fix" us either. I think a lot of what will determine if we need huge buffs or just a few tweeks will be what they decide to do with healing agro, and more importantly how they are going to change/impliment future boss fights. If the prevent throwing mobs off the side of cliffs, limit continuous cc, and either lower healing agro or buff our agro (in non conq specs) than we will become far more valuable to a party. If they leave things as they are tho, we need some serious changes to abilities in our other 2 specs to make them viable.
Thanks.
While i agree we should keep as much discussion as we can in a few threads as possible, dkcandy why dont you back off. You responded to another thread about GF that was created today, about the same topic. This post was actually created yesterday. Why do you feel its ok to come in here and ***** at the OP/responders, but in the other thread your not telling everyone to get out of that thread and move to another one.
If your going to be going into threads and telling people to get out at least provide a link to a thread that you somehow grace with your aproval. At least than people will know which threads you consider valid and worthy of posting in.
Just read some other threads and my brilliant ideas to change the TAB key was already taken
I dont nessisarily hate the mechanic for mark, i just think they need to increase the TPS of the 2 other specs besides conq so TPS is not yo yoing between good -> <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and back depending on if mark is up or not. Threat should be "ok" when mark isnt up, and we should have to mark depending on how good our other group members are.
I have a lvl 50 GF (tank) character. So far I don't know how endgame looks like but up to this point I had no problem AOE tanking 4-5 groups holding all 30mobs on me.
*The observations I've seen so far are ''mindless'' mobs who ignore threat/aggro entirely such as undead Hulks. I think they just pick a target and blindly follow it, in that case only Mark(tab) + Knights' Challenge works the charm on such monsters.
*Another observation is this, I charge into a group I use Enforced Threat skill which in any other game would be called AOE taunt ability! And after I've gained some aggro, I use the wrong attack by mistake (the one not while guarded - shift key) break 2 monsters' mark on their head and immediately they change targets, afterwards I use Threatening Rush or Tab key to reimburst the marks and they turn back on me.
*The last thing is CrowdControl. If I am flinged upwards by some enemy spell or ability I loose almost entire aggro on group of monsters, so I am forced to AOE taunt them back.
Now, I'm not sure if that is working as intended but I love it. This is the only game so far where TANK requires real skill to play well and control monsters how to behave on the field, not to mention they like to get behind you and flank with *sneak attack* bonuses from D&D lore.
Damage plays a big role in threat accumulating but there are 3 specific abilities in your Power Tree, which tells you exactly ''THIS IS FOR TANKING'' and if you aren't specced like that, I'm sorry but u'r doing it wrong.
So far on my healer(44) I've met about 80% failed tank players if not more, so the threat/aggro is far from broken imho, ppl just need to l2p.
Repeating over and over I love this game difficulty and I hope game DEVs don't nerf it to be Blizzard-like.
So in my humble opinion and experience I recommend these abilities for tanks:
-Villains' Menace (good to fight against CCs)
-Enforced Threat (excellent AOE taunt)
-Threatening rush (excellent starting engagement skill, also fast marks on monsters)
-Knights' Challenge (useful against 'dummy-mindless' monsters)
The rest is optional but these will glue a monster or a group of them on you without landing any significant damage on them.