test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Forums > Home› Class Forums›
GF - How threat works - Basic Tanking Guide in Neverwinter
dkcandy
Member Posts: 1,555 Bounty Hunter
Hello Everyone.
This is going to be a very short tanking guide and how threat works in Neverwinter from my own personal observations and evaluations with other tanks. There could be some incorrect information, so please feel free to post your comments and corrections.
First lets talk about threat tables:
Each hostile creature has a threat table and it appears that threat is not wiped during a fight till the fight is over with the creature dead or entire party dead and all creatures reset.
In simple terms:
1. Target with highest threat
2. 2nd target with highest threat
3. 3rd target, etc....
The creatures will attack the target with the highest threat at the time of using a skill or attack. Each time they go to do an action they check which target has the highest threat and then attacks that player. This is why you'll see creatures appear to sometimes rubber band back and forth between targets. Because 2 players are so close to threat that when 1 goes to dodge the other is over taking that players threat.
Now you should understand basic threat table mechanics and what to look out for should you become the next target.
TIP: If you are a DPS Class and creatures start to target you, stop your DPS on those creatures and switch to another. Allow your tanks to pickup aggro before going backing to DPS unless of course you are trying to burn down a boss. Also if you are a healer and able to quickly notify your team that you are being targeted. You can stop healing and allow your tank(s) to pickup threat before healing the party again.
How threat is generated
It appears that threat is generated on a 1:1 ratio for both Healing & Damage and there are (2) types of threat generation mechanics:
Indirect - Healing
Direct - Damage to a specific creature
The major issue with tanking in Neverwinter and holding #1 Threat position to every creature is "Tanks" only have direct threat mechanics and their taunts/stuns are restricted to a very low # of creatures. This requires the tank(s) to keep damaging the targets they want to hold aggro with and stay #1 on threat tables.
This is also why Clerics can easily pull aggro and become #1 threat position to every creature in the battle. Because their healing is generating threat on every creature in combat and can quickly over take the tanks threat.
TIP: If your team is taking a lot of damage, your cleric is building a lot of threat to every creature. If your cleric suddenly takes aggro on a large # of creatures, have the entire party switch to self healing or avoid damage till your tank(s) gain control of the fight. Dead Cleric normally means a wipe.
Threat Generating Feats & Powers for Guardian Fighters
Currently the Guardian Fighter is the "Primary Tank" for Neverwinter and we have several feats that help boost our threat generation but remember DPS (Damage Per Second) is the base of all threat generation. So if your DPS is low, so will your TPS (Threat Per Second). This is why DPS geared & built GFs have an easier time holding threat than defensive GFs.
Race: The race you select has very little impact on the amount of DPS/TPS you can generate but not enough to really matter. Only a few % +/-. So pick the race you think looks best or prefer to play.
Stats: Primary Strength (This will give you the largest DPS/TPS increase % wise)
Feats:
Tier 1: Strength Focus 3/3 - Increased Damage
Tier 3: Power Attack 5/5 - 10% Damage Increase
Tier 3: Potent Challenge 3/3 - 15% Threat Increase
Tier 4: Weapon Mastery 3/3 - 3% Crt Chance Increase
Paragon Paths:
Conqueror - My personal preference as you do a lot more damage and damage = threat. You'll be using Cleave to maintain threat on large # of creatures and great for holding aggro on single target/boss.
Tactician - A friend of mine uses tactician and he spams daily's with this feat to hold aggro on large # of creatures and generates lots of threat.
Protector - Appears to be the worst of the 3 and of my friends that used this tree said it sucks. The other 2 paths are just superior.
Powers:
Enforced Threat - AoE taunt for up to (5) targets and forces them to attack you for a short time frame. (I only use this skill during trash pulls up to boss, then switch skill) Issue with skills is the limit to 5 targets.
Fighters Recovery - Must have for survival, tons of self healing
Enhanced Mark - +99% Threat Generation on marked targets - If you have threat issues a no brainier. (Otherwise I personally swap this out for: Combat Superiority if threat isn't an issue.)
Threatening Rush - Marks all targets in a small AOE on target you melee hit. Great skill to use on trash and when tanking adds/boss.
Trample the Fallen + Battle Trample Feat - +25% Weapon Damage as threat + 25% Weapon Damage as physical Damage for 3 seconds after using a CC. (Many of the GF Powers trigger this)
Knight's Valor - A good skill to reduce the amount of damage your entire party is taking which also reduces the amount of healing your Cleric is down and reduces the amount of indirect threat the cleric is generating.
If you are looking for more assistance for specific builds, browse the forums as there are many good builds to try and figure out what is fun for you.
This is going to be a very short tanking guide and how threat works in Neverwinter from my own personal observations and evaluations with other tanks. There could be some incorrect information, so please feel free to post your comments and corrections.
First lets talk about threat tables:
Each hostile creature has a threat table and it appears that threat is not wiped during a fight till the fight is over with the creature dead or entire party dead and all creatures reset.
In simple terms:
1. Target with highest threat
2. 2nd target with highest threat
3. 3rd target, etc....
The creatures will attack the target with the highest threat at the time of using a skill or attack. Each time they go to do an action they check which target has the highest threat and then attacks that player. This is why you'll see creatures appear to sometimes rubber band back and forth between targets. Because 2 players are so close to threat that when 1 goes to dodge the other is over taking that players threat.
Now you should understand basic threat table mechanics and what to look out for should you become the next target.
TIP: If you are a DPS Class and creatures start to target you, stop your DPS on those creatures and switch to another. Allow your tanks to pickup aggro before going backing to DPS unless of course you are trying to burn down a boss. Also if you are a healer and able to quickly notify your team that you are being targeted. You can stop healing and allow your tank(s) to pickup threat before healing the party again.
How threat is generated
It appears that threat is generated on a 1:1 ratio for both Healing & Damage and there are (2) types of threat generation mechanics:
Indirect - Healing
Direct - Damage to a specific creature
The major issue with tanking in Neverwinter and holding #1 Threat position to every creature is "Tanks" only have direct threat mechanics and their taunts/stuns are restricted to a very low # of creatures. This requires the tank(s) to keep damaging the targets they want to hold aggro with and stay #1 on threat tables.
This is also why Clerics can easily pull aggro and become #1 threat position to every creature in the battle. Because their healing is generating threat on every creature in combat and can quickly over take the tanks threat.
TIP: If your team is taking a lot of damage, your cleric is building a lot of threat to every creature. If your cleric suddenly takes aggro on a large # of creatures, have the entire party switch to self healing or avoid damage till your tank(s) gain control of the fight. Dead Cleric normally means a wipe.
Threat Generating Feats & Powers for Guardian Fighters
Currently the Guardian Fighter is the "Primary Tank" for Neverwinter and we have several feats that help boost our threat generation but remember DPS (Damage Per Second) is the base of all threat generation. So if your DPS is low, so will your TPS (Threat Per Second). This is why DPS geared & built GFs have an easier time holding threat than defensive GFs.
Race: The race you select has very little impact on the amount of DPS/TPS you can generate but not enough to really matter. Only a few % +/-. So pick the race you think looks best or prefer to play.
Stats: Primary Strength (This will give you the largest DPS/TPS increase % wise)
Feats:
Tier 1: Strength Focus 3/3 - Increased Damage
Tier 3: Power Attack 5/5 - 10% Damage Increase
Tier 3: Potent Challenge 3/3 - 15% Threat Increase
Tier 4: Weapon Mastery 3/3 - 3% Crt Chance Increase
Paragon Paths:
Conqueror - My personal preference as you do a lot more damage and damage = threat. You'll be using Cleave to maintain threat on large # of creatures and great for holding aggro on single target/boss.
Tactician - A friend of mine uses tactician and he spams daily's with this feat to hold aggro on large # of creatures and generates lots of threat.
Protector - Appears to be the worst of the 3 and of my friends that used this tree said it sucks. The other 2 paths are just superior.
Powers:
Enforced Threat - AoE taunt for up to (5) targets and forces them to attack you for a short time frame. (I only use this skill during trash pulls up to boss, then switch skill) Issue with skills is the limit to 5 targets.
Fighters Recovery - Must have for survival, tons of self healing
Enhanced Mark - +99% Threat Generation on marked targets - If you have threat issues a no brainier. (Otherwise I personally swap this out for: Combat Superiority if threat isn't an issue.)
Threatening Rush - Marks all targets in a small AOE on target you melee hit. Great skill to use on trash and when tanking adds/boss.
Trample the Fallen + Battle Trample Feat - +25% Weapon Damage as threat + 25% Weapon Damage as physical Damage for 3 seconds after using a CC. (Many of the GF Powers trigger this)
Knight's Valor - A good skill to reduce the amount of damage your entire party is taking which also reduces the amount of healing your Cleric is down and reduces the amount of indirect threat the cleric is generating.
If you are looking for more assistance for specific builds, browse the forums as there are many good builds to try and figure out what is fun for you.
Post edited by dkcandy on
0
Comments
This is the problem.
The defensive players, i.e. those who are building to become tanks, don't have the threat bonuses necessary for them to do their job. Feat and inherent encounter bonuses need to be scaled. It wouldn't hurt none to have some form of threat mechanic associated with Block as well.
This is the same problem which plagued TOR for a long time. Juggernauts/Guardians COULD tank but they had to work twice as hard to do what the other two archetypes could do whilst being AFK if they so chose.
Also another big issue is how the current encounters are built around massive ADDs. If they reduce the amount of threat or your TANK(s) can hold aggro from your healer they become nothing more than tank/spank ez mode. The only way to fix the issue is to create new encounters with creative mechanics (enrage timers, complex attacks, etc...) and reduce the amount of threat healing generates.
This will then makes DPS Classes the 2nd to get aggro after the tank and require DPS to watch their threat but that's common in every MMO. This will need to be done prior to 20 man Raids otherwise just think about 100 AD's for 20 players to manage and clerics running around everywhere! Oh the Chaos
Hi dkcandy, did you test this in some way or is it based on observation? I'd love to know the details.
I read somewhere a Cleric saying that buffing players temporary hitpoints also generate a lot of threat. I wonder if Guardians can in the same way build threat with Into The Fray.
Cast on enemy: same effect as now.
Cast on ally: "Place a mark on the ally for 15 seconds. While marked transfer 35% of the threat generated by this ally to you. Only one ally can be marked at a time."
Combat arena. Adjustable challenge.
Difficulty: Adjustable easy - very hard
Duration: Adjustable 1 - 25min
Use Treathening rush to mark the enemys then spam the gaurd at-will stab attack while using Iron warrior for both defensive purpose and to hold your gaurd up much longer so you can use the ability longer. When needed use Enforced treath combined with the daily retaliation-thing power (can not remember the name). (Arcane singularity is your friend just charge on all those clamped monsters and stab like there is no tomorrow)
As other encounter powers I can recommend Into the fray and Knight's valor (depending on the encounter you might want to swap Iron warrior for into the fray) both help out your team a lot.
As other at-will power use the shield bash one which gives a huge debuff while helping you recover your gaurd.
As passives use Enhanced mark (ofcourse) and Ferocious reaction (combined with the soulforged enchantment you should practically never die)
After going into the protector path I specced into the tactical feats which give cooldown reduction and 10% damage reduction to allys on marked targets.
I can recommed everyone this build for both tier 1 and 2. Your dps will be <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> but aggro will be very decent and you truly will be an immovable object, while helping out your team with some significant buffs.
(as second daily power I prefer the frontal cone knockdown)
Disclaimer: This ofcourse is not an optimal build and if your intrested in one; Rokuthy made a very impressive dps/tank hybrid which you can find in the build sticky. It however has worked for me trough more then 60 (Got the Immovable Object title yay!) tier 1 and 2 dungeon pugs using just one cleric.
(Just to be clear here, using this build I pugged all tier 2 dungeons multiple times with a high succes rate. (Including the fixed Spider Temple) Except for the Dread Vault which I only tried once) I have not tried CN yet and therefore do not know how well the build will hold.
This has to be a bug inflating the numbers from the other characters or something. It seemed like my marks weren't only increasing my threat, but were doing so for anyone who hit whatever I marked.
But the basic mechanic of indirect vs. direct threat is a common practice with most games. It's highly unlikely that NW has a complex threat system like WoW which each skills having different threat value. The flat threat generation based on damage/heal just makes sense to what we are seeing and what I suspected.
Also I've noticed that some skills/feats appear to generate more threat an example is using Trample with the Trample Feat. I've been testing using this vs. Enhanced Threat. But it's possible Enhanced threat is broken or not working correctly.
What I would like to see is a threat meter in the game, so we could actually monitor threat.
When a target is marked your damage to the target generates more threat. So you need to become # 1 in threat before it will switch to you and as you've seen this can be an issue.
If anyone really wants to test threat mechanics it's pretty simple:
3 player team go to a low level zone.
1 - GF
1 - DC
1 - DPS
GF & DPS - Balance your gear till both of you hit about the same damage using one of your at-wills.
GF - Hit target with/without mark, with/without enhanced mark, etc... to see which feats are actually working to generate threat.
You want DPS hit target first and then see how much damage the GF has to do before target switches to GF. Then add/remove skills that boost threat.
You can do the same thing with DC heals to see how much healing the DC does before target switches to DC.
If anyone wants to actually test this stuff go for it and please post results.
focus on a single aggro is not enough, we must also somehow protected. Аll at once is not enough resources.
Reason why Enforced Threat must have hit limit, i dont want use it and agro all adds with boss and be dead in few secs.
I want some CC resist on GF. Im using menace only cus it have CC resist. Hate block dont block all CC.
So if i understood correctly your statements, it's all assumption, it hasn't been tested and proved. But since, it looks like the threat model of other games, it's simple enough for Cryptic to build the mechanic like this and it sounds like a valid model, you can call this a threat guide to Neverwinter, right?
While most of your guide could be true, that's irrelevant, brings nothing new and is based around assumptions. BTW, some of your feats has been tested and does nothing with to your threat, even worst, some observations posted weeks ago make it possible that Potent Challenge feat (5/10/15% more threat) is not only bugged, but might apply negative value to your threat.
I can pop it to pull something off someone / reduce the damage of a huge attack against someone.
Or I can pop it and mix it with Anvil to help finish something off.
Basically in my opinion, if you're tanking and not having Knight's Challenge on your hotbar, you haven't thought this through.
You generate 5/10/15% more Threat.
This is also a very old post and before the Threat changes and nerfs to DC threat.
all you need is Knights challenge for single target (bosses) to hold aggro if your dmg is decent.