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Allow for Ability Score Rerolls or Fix Them

skarrzogskarrzog Member Posts: 5 Arc User
edited June 2013 in General Discussion (PC)
As the title says, they either need to provide a means of re-rolling our ability scores or fix them.

First, I have never seen an MMO require their players to make such important decisions at the character creation screen. When creating a character, one should assume the player has no in-depth knowledge of the class they are creating, at least not enough to properly allocate their ability scores.

Second, the information provided at the character creation screen is insufficient and inaccurate in some cases. All that is provided when choosing our ability scores is, "this is your primary stat, these are your secondary stats, and these are not useful." So without much in-depth knowledge of the class one might follow that pecking order, maximize primary, then secondary, minimize everything else.

However, in at least two of the classes I have played thus far the "Primary" skill, Dex for Rogues, and Wis for Clerics, are not actually the best stats for those classes. So a player following the suggestion made at the character creation screen of maximizing one's primary stat for those classes will find themselves at a disadvantage before even casting their first spell.

After having leveled my cleric and gaining more knowledge of the class, as it happens naturally, I am left with two choices. My first choice is to abandon my cleric and level another one with the proper stats. My second choice is to continue playing at a severe disadvantage for a decision I made at the character creation screen.

So in conclusion, either allow players to re-roll their ability scores somehow, or make the primary stats for certain classes, like Rogues and Clerics, actually better than their secondary stats.
Post edited by skarrzog on

Comments

  • lexthegreatlexthegreat Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I agree. Either let us re-roll ability scores or actually make them do what they are supposed to. Primary should have more befits than secondary, not the other way around.

    Also while at it, fix all the **** bugs that plague all classes. Every single feat and spell/skill should do exactly what it says, or be disabled.
  • berinimaberinima Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 28 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Yeah I would like to see that too. Probably they would charge Zen/ADs for that but it is something I would even pay/farm ADs for. Cryptic, please implement a reroll token for that.
  • skarrzogskarrzog Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Bumping the thread, hoping to get a response.
  • watchyourbackwatchyourback Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    skarrzog wrote: »
    As the title says, they either need to provide a means of re-rolling our ability scores or fix them.

    First, I have never seen an MMO require their players to make such important decisions at the character creation screen. When creating a character, one should assume the player has no in-depth knowledge of the class they are creating, at least not enough to properly allocate their ability scores.

    Second, the information provided at the character creation screen is insufficient and inaccurate in some cases. All that is provided when choosing our ability scores is, "this is your primary stat, these are your secondary stats, and these are not useful." So without much in-depth knowledge of the class one might follow that pecking order, maximize primary, then secondary, minimize everything else.

    However, in at least two of the classes I have played thus far the "Primary" skill, Dex for Rogues, and Wis for Clerics, are not actually the best stats for those classes. So a player following the suggestion made at the character creation screen of maximizing one's primary stat for those classes will find themselves at a disadvantage before even casting their first spell.

    After having leveled my cleric and gaining more knowledge of the class, as it happens naturally, I am left with two choices. My first choice is to abandon my cleric and level another one with the proper stats. My second choice is to continue playing at a severe disadvantage for a decision I made at the character creation screen.

    So in conclusion, either allow players to re-roll their ability scores somehow, or make the primary stats for certain classes, like Rogues and Clerics, actually better than their secondary stats.

    have you ever played the actual D&D game? not trolling but just saying that the roll attribute feature at creation has ALWAYS been there.
  • aepervius1972aepervius1972 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 66
    edited May 2013
    I admit I have been a bit surprised when looking at the number , that WIS for cleric and DEX for rogue is not the best investment. Now I would change for something more equilibrated in my state, rather than the skewed roll I did (you can guess : a 20/13/13).

    I would not change since I don't raid, and it is fine enough until 60, but I agreee that for those PVPing and raiding, it is quite a problem that the stats description give a wrong idea of what to roll.

    In fact the stat descrioption should be the one in game with the bonus rather than the 1 line "this is your primary" we get.

    Ha, yes, respec should allow the reroll of the stats.
  • aepervius1972aepervius1972 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 66
    edited May 2013
    have you ever played the actual D&D game? not trolling but just saying that the roll attribute feature at creation has ALWAYS been there.

    In all AD&D game I ever played, WIS *was* really the important stats for cleric, and DEX (+STR) for Rogue.

    The problem is that by having an action recharge influence how often you do your encounters powers, they skewed that around.
    Being guided by what I know from AD&D , I was actually led the less effective path and i can imagine plenty other were.
    It is much more effective to do the powers more often than icnrease a small % your power damage.

    And since there is no "skills" and stats inlfuence criticals/recharge speed/power/defenses for min / maxer this is a problem.

    Look, IIRC control wizard have their power AND recharge speed on INT. Why was it not done the same for cleric ?
  • skarrzogskarrzog Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    have you ever played the actual D&D game? not trolling but just saying that the roll attribute feature at creation has ALWAYS been there.

    I have not, and I understand that the game is created with the spirit of D&D in mind. However, from what I do know about D&D the primary stats, like Wisdom and Dex for Clerics and Rogues were actually their best stats. At the character creation screen, the little information provided is misleading.

    I am not saying remove stat rolls from the character creation screen. What I am saying, is understand that they are misleading, understand that most people will not have enough indept knowledge of their class at that point to make such permanent decisions. With that in mind, allow people to reroll their stats in some way. OR, fix the stats such that the "primary" stats are actually the best stats.
  • knoteskadknoteskad Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I agree completely.

    However, Wisdom is very underrated on Cleric. Considering how much crit you get already and how few dmg/healing bonuses you may get, that dmg/healing bonus actually becomes better.

    If you have 30% crit and 10% bonus dmg/healing, and need to choose 5% for either, going from 10 to 15% bonus dmg/healing when you already have 30% crit is actually better. Also Astral Shield can't crit.

    I'm a wisdom cleric, don't fret about it.

    But again, agree completely about the main topic lol. I'd also like race change tokens TBH, no reason not to.
  • fondlezfondlez Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    0. Ability scores should matter. This is the whole point of D&D. You cannot fault the developers for that, even if you are not used to it from other MMORPGs.

    1. However, it is critical that ability score descriptions at character screens need to be the same as those visible within the game. You cannot expect brand new players to have to create a throwaway character just to understand for what they are making a huge time and possibly cash investment.

    2. If descriptions are correct, whichever is marked as "Primary" becomes almost irrelevant and the prerogative of the developers.

    3. There should be at least one free respec at level 60 for Powers and Feats.

    4. Purchased respec token should allow respeccing everything except race, i.e. Ability Scores, Ability Score Selections, Powers and Feats.

    As for Clerics, Wisdom does turn out in the endgame to be a useful Ability Score for Clerics because you can easily get to a soft cap for Recovery and a healthy amount of Crit from gear and an Augment-quality pet.
  • skarrzogskarrzog Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    bumping thread
  • berinimaberinima Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 28 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Since I am also interested in this topic... Bumping as well. I would certainly give you some Zen for that, Cryptic!
  • destinyknightdestinyknight Member Posts: 962 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Thing thing I hate is when I level up. I cannot spend 2 points in one ability. Say I wanted to put 2 points in strength. It will only let me put 1 point in strength and the other point in something else.
  • misterrmatt4438misterrmatt4438 Member Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    level 50 gwf and I didn't even get to roll stats at creation.. guess what that means .. highest stat is a 5 now .. figured this out at lvl 24... this was my first toon and I put a ton of work into him and his professions iv submitted 2 tickets and tried to start threads about a fix for him (after a week of being registered still cant start a thread-yet another problem) as it sits my stats are 5-5-1-1-1-1... at lvl 52... I cant help but wonder how badly my toon is being nerfed by this .. wonder wat id be hitting at 25 str! I also give my +1 to this idea .. tho with the level of support from cryptic and how much they "thank us for our input" I doubt itll ever get fixed.. if anyone knows how to fix this or has the same problem let me know what youv tried

    update---- respec token used .. no help
  • bracer2bracer2 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 566 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    skarrzog wrote: »
    As the title says, they either need to provide a means of re-rolling our ability scores or fix them.

    First, I have never seen an MMO require their players to make such important decisions at the character creation screen. When creating a character, one should assume the player has no in-depth knowledge of the class they are creating, at least not enough to properly allocate their ability scores.

    Second, the information provided at the character creation screen is insufficient and inaccurate in some cases. All that is provided when choosing our ability scores is, "this is your primary stat, these are your secondary stats, and these are not useful." So without much in-depth knowledge of the class one might follow that pecking order, maximize primary, then secondary, minimize everything else.

    However, in at least two of the classes I have played thus far the "Primary" skill, Dex for Rogues, and Wis for Clerics, are not actually the best stats for those classes. So a player following the suggestion made at the character creation screen of maximizing one's primary stat for those classes will find themselves at a disadvantage before even casting their first spell.

    After having leveled my cleric and gaining more knowledge of the class, as it happens naturally, I am left with two choices. My first choice is to abandon my cleric and level another one with the proper stats. My second choice is to continue playing at a severe disadvantage for a decision I made at the character creation screen.

    So in conclusion, either allow players to re-roll their ability scores somehow, or make the primary stats for certain classes, like Rogues and Clerics, actually better than their secondary stats.

    See those two words above the title "neverwinter"?
    for 40 years many critical character decisions (should be way more imo) are determined at character creation. Its sad to me that the most D&D thing about this game is probably the initial dice roll... sad. So much more about characters should be determined at creation. I can have 75 different kinds of eyebrows but cant choose any proficiencies or longterm skills at initial creation.

    Totally disagree no re-rolls. More initial options.
  • misterrmatt4438misterrmatt4438 Member Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    bracer2 wrote: »
    See those two words above the title "neverwinter"?
    for 40 years many critical character decisions (should be way more imo) are determined at character creation. Its sad to me that the most D&D thing about this game is probably the initial dice roll... sad. So much more about characters should be determined at creation. I can have 75 different kinds of eyebrows but cant choose any proficiencies or longterm skills at initial creation.

    Totally disagree no re-rolls. More initial options.

    of course its far to much to ask for both "/ I agree with both man
  • leapsfromshadowsleapsfromshadows Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 19 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Thing thing I hate is when I level up. I cannot spend 2 points in one ability. Say I wanted to put 2 points in strength. It will only let me put 1 point in strength and the other point in something else.
    That's a rule from DnD. You can only spend one point in an ability when you get to the ability-increase levels. The other point has to be spent in a different ability.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • berinimaberinima Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 28 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Maybe a word from Cryptic on this?
  • arcbladezarcbladez Member Posts: 210 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    I gotta admit, that's one of the reasons I retired my 1st character, my TR, because i'm so used to Crit being a very minor stat in WoW because it's too random, and you're better off focusing on all other stats so you can guaranty higher DPS rather than always gambling with crit.

    But in NW, I've learned that Crit is the most important stat after Power because Recovery and Armor Pen isn't as good. Oh but too late now, I put less points to increase my crit and there is no way to change it!

    So I rerolled a CW, but this time I followed a guide written by a pro gamer and now my CW rocks hard and I love it!

    Maybe I'll just delete my TR and start over. She's only 40 anyways. But I do feel bad for whoever levelled to 60, got some epics and realizes they made a huge mistake when they first rolled their character. :P Cause I don't care if character creation rolls are "D&D"! Hardcore games do NOT sell! Casual games do! Just because this game has the D&D logo on it doesn't mean it needs to follow all the hardcore D&D rules to the letter! Non-D&D fans won't care and hate the dice roll system when we roll our stats. Do you really want to lose those non-D&D fans only to please the hardcore D&D ones?
  • rabbiddograbbiddog Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Hmm, well. Just to play devils advocate; you are aware that at character creation, when at the class selection screen, it does tell you what stats are important for each class? And as a matter of fact, when actually getting to the stat rolling part, it also "highlights" those stats that are the most important ones for that particular class. Honestly, if you took your time during character creation, paid attention, and didn't rush through it, you shouldn't have had an issue with stat allocation.

    Just an observation on my part anyway. ;)
  • rabbiddograbbiddog Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    skarrzog wrote: »
    As the title says, they either need to provide a means of re-rolling our ability scores or fix them.

    First, I have never seen an MMO require their players to make such important decisions at the character creation screen. When creating a character, one should assume the player has no in-depth knowledge of the class they are creating, at least not enough to properly allocate their ability scores.

    Second, the information provided at the character creation screen is insufficient and inaccurate in some cases. All that is provided when choosing our ability scores is, "this is your primary stat, these are your secondary stats, and these are not useful." So without much in-depth knowledge of the class one might follow that pecking order, maximize primary, then secondary, minimize everything else.

    However, in at least two of the classes I have played thus far the "Primary" skill, Dex for Rogues, and Wis for Clerics, are not actually the best stats for those classes. So a player following the suggestion made at the character creation screen of maximizing one's primary stat for those classes will find themselves at a disadvantage before even casting their first spell.

    After having leveled my cleric and gaining more knowledge of the class, as it happens naturally, I am left with two choices. My first choice is to abandon my cleric and level another one with the proper stats. My second choice is to continue playing at a severe disadvantage for a decision I made at the character creation screen.

    So in conclusion, either allow players to re-roll their ability scores somehow, or make the primary stats for certain classes, like Rogues and Clerics, actually better than their secondary stats.

    Hmm, not really seeing this. I focused on my primary stats for both those classes you mention and and doing quite well. Any of my stat increases during leveling have also gone exclisvley into those stats. And those are two of my strongest characters. Honestly, I am not seeing the problem.
  • diyosa1983diyosa1983 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Whether or not it's D&D, hardcore, you are told at the character screen or whatever. I'd like to spend some Zen on that feature, too! Not to mention that not exactly every information about ability scores are exactly available when you start your toon. New builds come up, things get nerfed or buffed and some people just want to react to that. Or try different things out.

    And Cryptic: Even want to spend some bucks on that.
  • labbblabbb Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Why you shouldn't of taken the roll with an 18 anyways

    all available rolls , be warned when starting GWF one of the 17,13,13 ... propagates wrong .

    18 13 13 10 10 8 ( 72 )
    18 13 13 10 8 10
    18 13 13 8 10 10

    17 14 13 10 10 10 ( 74 )

    17 13 13 11 11 10 ( 75 )
    17 13 13 11 10 11

    16 16 12 10 10 10 ( 74 )
    16 15 13 11 11 9 ( 75 )
    16 14 14 11 10 10

    15 15 13 12 11 10 ( 76 )
    15 15 13 11 10 12

    15 14 13 12 12 11 ( 77 )

    ( total points ) see lower main stat better rounded toon .
  • darksxdarksx Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 198 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    have you ever played the actual D&D game? not trolling but just saying that the roll attribute feature at creation has ALWAYS been there.

    While I would agree with you, lets be totally honest, this is not really DnD. I love how some aspects try to be DnD but in all reality, this is only a small potion of what DnD is all about. I personally would like to be able to add those points myself individually. not by some lame scripted database roll that they deem playable.
  • berinimaberinima Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 28 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Besides of facts like that, that come up long after people reached 60, bought Cat, got crafts to 20, invested AD and farmed purple gear.... You'd like to change stats from time to time according to the build you use.

    I play a TR too and who would have thought that the stat the game regards as YOUR PRIMARY STAT isn't the one that you want to invest most of your points. Anyway, if you don't like the feature or don't want to pay for it, just don't. A respec token or a makeover isn't D&D as well but it's good to have. And some bucks for Cryptic. It's just a feature that some people want/need.
  • daschladaschla Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 240 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    This thread, and this concern needs attention from the development team. With drastic changes coming to some of the classes, literally lowering the effectiveness of a class if you rolled bad dice, PW needs to explain why we are unable to adjust the initial roll to favour whatever is needed for the build we intend to respec to.. Which, might I add, we pay DEARLY for..
    Sister Vanity knows if you've been naughty or nice...and heals accordingly.
  • lltsnwnlltsnwn Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 787 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    Is there any way (Zen, Astral Diamonds, etc) to change your initial Ability Score point die rolls selections?
    12.jpgRanger.jpg
  • ganjaman1ganjaman1 Member Posts: 792 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    skarrzog wrote: »
    As the title says, they either need to provide a means of re-rolling our ability scores or fix them.

    First, I have never seen an MMO require their players to make such important decisions at the character creation screen. When creating a character, one should assume the player has no in-depth knowledge of the class they are creating, at least not enough to properly allocate their ability scores.

    Second, the information provided at the character creation screen is insufficient and inaccurate in some cases. All that is provided when choosing our ability scores is, "this is your primary stat, these are your secondary stats, and these are not useful." So without much in-depth knowledge of the class one might follow that pecking order, maximize primary, then secondary, minimize everything else.

    However, in at least two of the classes I have played thus far the "Primary" skill, Dex for Rogues, and Wis for Clerics, are not actually the best stats for those classes. So a player following the suggestion made at the character creation screen of maximizing one's primary stat for those classes will find themselves at a disadvantage before even casting their first spell.

    After having leveled my cleric and gaining more knowledge of the class, as it happens naturally, I am left with two choices. My first choice is to abandon my cleric and level another one with the proper stats. My second choice is to continue playing at a severe disadvantage for a decision I made at the character creation screen.

    So in conclusion, either allow players to re-roll their ability scores somehow, or make the primary stats for certain classes, like Rogues and Clerics, actually better than their secondary stats.

    You can just create a lvl 1 character and then see what each of the stats give you , or if you have a high level character with stats you don't like you can just reroll it doesn't take a lot of time to hit 60 . QQers everywhere lol .
  • rielamkinrielamkin Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    rabbiddog wrote: »
    Hmm, well. Just to play devils advocate; you are aware that at character creation, when at the class selection screen, it does tell you what stats are important for each class? And as a matter of fact, when actually getting to the stat rolling part, it also "highlights" those stats that are the most important ones for that particular class. Honestly, if you took your time during character creation, paid attention, and didn't rush through it, you shouldn't have had an issue with stat allocation.

    Just an observation on my part anyway. ;)

    I think what the initial post was about is that the character creation screen is giving bad information. It SAYS what the good stats are, but they really aren't the best ones. So whether you picked them according to the info there, or based on D&D knowledge, you can easily pick the wrong stats. So having a token that would let you reset them would allow that to be corrected :)
  • bioshrikebioshrike Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,729 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    labbb wrote: »
    Why you shouldn't of taken the roll with an 18 anyways

    all available rolls , be warned when starting GWF one of the 17,13,13 ... propagates wrong .

    18 13 13 10 10 8 ( 72 )
    18 13 13 10 8 10
    18 13 13 8 10 10

    17 14 13 10 10 10 ( 74 )

    17 13 13 11 11 10 ( 75 )
    17 13 13 11 10 11

    16 16 12 10 10 10 ( 74 )
    16 15 13 11 11 9 ( 75 )
    16 14 14 11 10 10

    15 15 13 12 11 10 ( 76 )
    15 15 13 11 10 12

    15 14 13 12 12 11 ( 77 )

    ( total points ) see lower main stat better rounded toon .


    That's very interesting - it rewards you for being more well-rounded. Overall, though, would those extra 5 stat points pay off by the time you hit 60?
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  • datemperdatemper Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 210 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    skarrzog wrote: »
    I have not, and I understand that the game is created with the spirit of D&D in mind. However, from what I do know about D&D the primary stats, like Wisdom and Dex for Clerics and Rogues were actually their best stats. At the character creation screen, the little information provided is misleading.

    I am not saying remove stat rolls from the character creation screen. What I am saying, is understand that they are misleading, understand that most people will not have enough indept knowledge of their class at that point to make such permanent decisions. With that in mind, allow people to reroll their stats in some way. OR, fix the stats such that the "primary" stats are actually the best stats.

    Actually that's misinformation about D&D cleric and rogue stat allocation.the best stat allocations in the past have always been the ones that benefit your build most.Hence the reason so many people made rogues with huge strength scores and many like myself preferred a even stat allocation for clerics at creation.

    Having said that,Neverwinter is a whole different beast from the standard D&D rule guidelines and I agree that the stats need better descriptions.Respec ? Maybe viable,but it would have to cost some hefty AD,as things like respecing,rebirthing,resurrecting or most anything tied to serious character development decisions have always been very expensive.

    D&D has always been about making choices with a permanent consequence,if that is taken from the game not a great deal of D&D will be left in Neverwinter.Just my opinion at least.
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