Sly Flourish vs Duelist Flurry

Comments

• xelrah Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 6 Arc User

  May 2013 edited May 2013

  Bleed can crit fyi.

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• xxnkayxx Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User

  May 2013 edited May 2013

  If you get a feat Duelists Flurry gets a chance to gain stacks of Deadly Momentum. Each stack increases crit severity by 5% and stacks 3 times.
  This is an increase of 15% and can really do some damage. Coupled with the feat that increases crit severity while stealthed you can have some hard hitting lashing Blades.
  But I wouldn't use it in pvp.
  
  Duelists Flurry PvE
  Sly Flourish PvP

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• forestofshadows Member Posts: 2 Arc User

  May 2013 edited May 2013

  Thanks for confirmation that DF is better for PVE.
  
  Went to reconfirm, the 'crits' in the bleeds don't show up as crits.
  However, there are some numbers which populate both the value columns.
  
  non-crit:
  473.88, 0
  
  'crit':
  544.96, 473.88
  
  15% increase.

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• s3z3 Member Posts: 216 Bounty Hunter

  May 2013 edited May 2013

  As a lvl60 TR I can with a 100% certainty tell u that 'bleed' crits and shows as orange crit numbers.

  Carnage TR Dragon shard - retired? hell yea it's retired along with Nevewinter
  
  Seze - Rogue - Necropolis - RIFT

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• stardrinkrer Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 23 Arc User

  May 2013 edited May 2013

  DF bleed can crit, and if it is a crit, it will stay a crit till it falls off.
  
  This also means that if it isn't a crit, it will never turn into a crit.
  
  You can try to "re-roll" the bleed by letting it fall off and re-applying it.
  
  It's a bit of a double-edged sword and an awkward mechanic. As it is currently, the key to maximising DPS for TR at the moment is to maximise DF bleed damage, which means gearing for it and making sure you are keeping up a Lurkers Assault buffed crit bleed for as long as possible.

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• noroblad Member Posts: 556 Arc User

  May 2013 edited May 2013

  if you are not using the third hit DF is useless. In pve, its easy to do that, you can change targets you just can't let too much time (and its not much) elapse or it resets to hit 1 again. (if you have a target, even if distant, you can still hit the skill and hit nothing at all and get your third hit ready time you reach it, attacking as you walk toward it, but you walk slower this way, sometimes its useful if they are not TOO far away).
  
  DF combined with the feat that cuts cooldowns on your encounters in addition to the above is super nice. That rapid spam hit can knock 2-3 seconds off your timers every time around, allowing more lashing goodness that is buffed by the above mentioned.... it all works together. That is the key to any good build, playing skills off each other...

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• creolegamer Member Posts: 100 Arc User

  May 2013 edited May 2013

  xxnkayxx wrote: »

  If you get a feat Duelists Flurry gets a chance to gain stacks of Deadly Momentum. Each stack increases crit severity by 5% and stacks 3 times.
  This is an increase of 15% and can really do some damage. Coupled with the feat that increases crit severity while stealthed you can have some hard hitting lashing Blades.
  But I wouldn't use it in pvp.
  
  Duelists Flurry PvE
  Sly Flourish PvP

  
  in some situations its much better to use duelist flurry in pvp that sly flourish. Not gonna go into every one but classes that stand and tank you (or ally) really suffer from the bleeds as they dont move too much. Its highly situational though and you'll prolly be switching it out to SF when the dmg is done

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• maligkn0 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User

  May 2013 edited May 2013

  Duelist flurry its absolutely the highest dps at will in the game, it melts trough people and its a must for both pvp and dungeons, yeah its hard to land the 3rd stike in pvp but if you are good you will soon find out its allot better that it seems, you just need to adapt and learn a few tricks to learn how to land it, most of the time you are going to be using combos and cloud of steel, DF its a punishing skill for foes who are not aware of their surroundings or you are using it in stealth but that only messes whit dazing strike 50% animation speed or lashing blade 100% crit chance.

  T2 epic dungeons and pvp stream

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• kurahavi Member Posts: 87

  May 2013 edited May 2013

  First of all... anyone who even dares to say flourish is even remotely close to as good as duelist's flurry, needs to quit playing rogue.
  
  I main Cleric, and I can admit that when I see such rogues, I will leave the party from dungeon, because as sad as it is, the highest pressure of clearing a dungeon actually rests on YOUR Rogues Bleed damage. Sadly not that many rogues even seem to understand how bleed works. If you got 2 rogues, the mob can have only one bleed on it, and every time a rogue hits the third attack of duelist flurry, called duelist flurry hit, it RANDOMS a number of damage that the bleed keeps on hitting as long as the rogue hits the third hit of flurry before the bleed ticks 11 times. Now if you have 2+ rogues, you can only have one bleed on a mob, EVEN THO you can put 20 stacks on it, once it goes past 10 stacks, the number will NOT change ever again until you let the bleed debuff reset, meaning let it tick 11 times. In other words 2 rogues, one bad, one good, the one bad can screw both of your rogues. Also wise versa, if the rogues get super high bleed on the boss monster, it is a lot easier to maintain that bleed with 2 rogues.
  
  Secondly I admit that I made a program that parses only duelists bleeds in real time, and if a rogue fails to deliver decent bleeds with in 10 or so minutes during a dungeon run, i will leave the party, because it is a waste of time. For example spider queen in t2 boss is almost impossible to even be killed with a BAD rogue. The whole success of the run lies in how good the rogue is. Another point of an advice, most rogues seem not to even use lurkers as their daily to push the bleeds 10th stack to the max... now think if your rogue maintains 1k bleed on t2 boss during the whole fight... its just waste of time. Also just to point out, once bleed is on the mob, if CW drops the defence of the monster, the bleeds damage goes up even after the bleed has been put on.
  
  As for statistics from my combat log parser, which I cannot say is 100% working but it should do most of its job, of random rogue in T2 Epic Spellplague:
  
  Duelist Flurry Bleed: 3300 hits, 9.7m Dmg , 44.96% of all the damage rogue made. Average damage per hit: 2945. Min 98.24 yes under 100, max: 22.2k most likely some debuffs on there on the max hit.
  Duelist Flurry Hit: 3409 hits, 3.7 m dmg, 17.20%. Avg dmg/hit: 1089, min 180.17, max: 6280
  Duelist Flurry: 1055 hits, 3.1m damage, 14.20%. Avg dmg/hit: 2928, min 766.40, max: 16179
  Lashing Blade: 123 hits, 2.3m damage, 10.55% avg dmg/hit: 18358, min 4672, max:63629
  Blitz: 275 hits, 1.3m damage, 5.98%, avg/hit: 4703, min 1846, max: 21341
  The rest....
  
  Now something to note about, only 60% of this rogues hits were flanks, meaning for 40% of the damage, 20% (could be higher if specced on combat advantage) of the damage was lost, which means roughly 0.2 * 0.4 = 0.08 = 8% of the damage is lost because the person didnt have stealth replenish skills such as Shadow Dagger or the clone. Of course you cannot have full 100% stealth with these 2, but close to 90% of the time you can be in shadows + the clone gives more daily power than any other skill up, which roughly doubles the daily power gain, which on the other hand means more lurkers.
  
  Also it is worth noting that from what ive seen the lashing blade seems to be around 10% of total damage the rogues deal, if they use duelist flurry, so it might be worth considering to swap that one out for shadow strike for more stealth.
  
  Something to bear in mind is, that combat log doesn't seem to have lurker activations logged. So I cannot say for sure, if the rogue ever used lurker or not. I can only wish he did, and most likely he did.
  
  Oh and since the bleed damage is every time randomed, increasing stacks can LOWER the bleeds damage.
  
  Edit: Forgot to put the most important thing: Flourish roughly does the same damage when going the lowest paragon tree as rogue when you dont count bleed at all, meaning Flourish does roughly same damage as Duelist Flurry Hit + Duelist Flurry, so the bleed is just "extra damage" compared to flourish, and this extra damage is more than what flourish does, so DF does over 2 times the damage to floursih.

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• kurahavi Member Posts: 87

  May 2013 edited May 2013

  forestofshadows wrote: »

  First of all, this is just an informative post. It will probably be useful for noobs around my level range (20+) to decide whether to use Sly Flourish or Duelist Flurry for main attack.
  
  I did a 5 minute nonstop spanking of the dummy and captured the logs.
  
  Still trying to figure out the columns in the combat logs but I think they mean the following:
  1. Date/time
  2. Player - Only look at your own logs, ignore others.
  3. ?? Pet ??
  4. ?? Pet instance ??
  5. Event target - refers to victim, or recipient of a heal, whether direct or indirect.
  6. ?? Target instance ??
  7. Spell
  8. ?? Gibberish ??
  9. Stats - Hitpoints, Physical or Power. If you gain HP, you have a negative value in column 10. If you leech HP, you also have a negative value in column 10. If you deal damage, it will show as positive number in column 10.
  10. Value 1 - This should be the heal/attack value
  11. Value 2 - No idea what this is. The figures here don't correlate to any other things.
  

  
  Points on parsing, I have come to conclusion that your
  
  nr 11 means True damage, damage where no debuffs that increase the damage is calculated nor no armor that reduces damage is calculated. Also for healing, healing yourself shows the true healing number without the reduce of that clerics passive.
  
  nr 8 gibberish means most likely skills id.
  
  Also you forgot to mention that after Player comes player id or instance as you call it.
  
  The number 3 - 4 can also be an entity such as Astral shield.

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• darkami669 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User

  May 2013 edited May 2013

  I see a flourish rogue from time to time, in PVE. I laugh at them and double thier DPS in every dungeon I am in. In fact I do not even have it on my Bar. flourish is PVP only

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• kiralyn Member Posts: 1,440 Arc User

  May 2013 edited May 2013

  Hmm, while leveling I ended up using SF a lot, just because everything kept moving around so much (both me, and them). But that's soloing adventure zones & quest instances. Haven't really done many dungeons. (still, the few I did, the bosses seem to bounce all over the room, even with a tank trying to hold their attention. Or they constantly dropped aoe you had to run away from. Or both.

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• stardrinkrer Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 23 Arc User

  May 2013 edited May 2013

  kiralyn wrote: »

  Hmm, while leveling I ended up using SF a lot, just because everything kept moving around so much (both me, and them). But that's soloing adventure zones & quest instances. Haven't really done many dungeons. (still, the few I did, the bosses seem to bounce all over the room, even with a tank trying to hold their attention. Or they constantly dropped aoe you had to run away from. Or both.

  
  For levelling, it's not a big deal if you use DF or not. DF only really shines when used on high HP enemies and when you have the bugged feat Deadly Momentum.

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• hammerstein Member Posts: 3 Arc User

  May 2013 edited May 2013

  Where can one download a parser? Are there any spreadsheets that anyone has made public?

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• kevinf08 Member Posts: 432 Bounty Hunter

  May 2013 edited May 2013

  kurahavi wrote: »

  Secondly I admit that I made a program that parses only duelists bleeds in real time, and if a rogue fails to deliver decent bleeds with in 10 or so minutes during a dungeon run, i will leave the party, because it is a waste of time. For example spider queen in t2 boss is almost impossible to even be killed with a BAD rogue.

  
  Spider boss isn't almost impossible to be killed with a BAD rogue, if what you mean by bad is one with a weak DF or using sly flourish (I will assume this since your post was mostly about Duelist flurry damage).
  
  Just have a party member kill teh little spiders and she won't heal.

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• mamoruk Member Posts: 19 Arc User

  May 2013 edited May 2013

  Honestly they're each on par with each other IMO it just one is more suited to a situation that another. Sly flourish is better used in PVP since your opponent is contantly moving most of the time and a lot of time you can't sit there and wait for all 3 hits to land while in PVE where they are standing in the same spot you can use duelist flurry over and over again. so in short like someone posted earlier
  
  PVP Sly Flourish
  PVE Duelist Flurry.

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• kurahavi Member Posts: 87

  May 2013 edited May 2013

  kevinf08 wrote: »

  Spider boss isn't almost impossible to be killed with a BAD rogue, if what you mean by bad is one with a weak DF or using sly flourish (I will assume this since your post was mostly about Duelist flurry damage).
  
  Just have a party member kill teh little spiders and she won't heal.

  
  As a bad rogue I mean someone who lets 500 bleed damage going on from beginning to the end without resetting it, to get higher bleed damage. I have seen this happen way too many times. Or someone who doesn't bother using lurkers when inflicting the 10th stack for a bleed. Sadly what I've seen in T2 dungeons this would be like over 90% of all the rogues around. The rogue just happens to be pretty much the most complex class in the game to play, so there are very few who can pull it off.
  
  The thing is, even badly geared rogue can out damage a good geared one, if the good geared doesn't understand the bleed mechanism, which is actually fairly simple, yet it adds a lot of depth to rogue. Also the reason why I only talk about rogues bleed damage is, because the bleed damage can do over 90% of all the damage rogue does to a boss, IF the rogue gets good bleed ticking. At that point it doesn't exactly matter if your flourish hits 3k damage on a boss per hit, if your bleed ticks 30k damage per second, every second from beginning of the fight to the end of the fight. On the other hand if your rogues bleed ticks 500 damage from beginning of the fight to the end of the fight, 500 damage per 1 second, i can almost guarantee that you wont down the spider boss.

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