guardians need nerf for pvp

marvandmartian · May 2013

When looking at a pvp front there has to be a balance. so 1 of a certain class has to be able to take one of another class. Guardians can sit there and take damage forever and nock people around taking the advantage in the arena. This is a major balance problem. In a nutshell a group of guardians could own the pvp by taking two points and just holding. There needs to be a counter.

adozu · May 2013

sure, let them hold 2 points, so long as the other team keeps fighting on those points there's only 1 tower active and it's for the other team. you don't even need to fight, a rogue can go stealth on their towers and rotate shadow strike/bait and switch to just sit there.

perfectindigo · May 2013

If a GF is solo capping your node, here's what you can do:

If you are ranged, attack from outside the node. The GF either has to come off the node (which lets you start getting points from the node) or let you kill them.
If not, you can spend a lot of time fighting that GF on the node. While you're fighting on the node, no one gets points for the node, and the GF can't finish capping it. With knockbacks, the GF may be able to eventually take the node from you, but they still won't be able to get many points since you can easily get back on the node to contest again.
1v1, GFs can last a while if they focus on defense, but they can't kill you unless they drop their guard, in which case it's a free for all and the best 1v1 wins.

If the GF already has the node, then ...
Look at your map. Maybe you can go cap or contest some other node.
If not, and you really want that node and don't want a long fight on the GF's terms, bring one ally. A GF cannot guard from two directions. One person either bursts the GFs guard or simply maneuvers behind the GF and CCs. Obliterate the GF, then leave one person to cap the node while the other person leaves. While killing the GF, don't let the GF lure you off the point. A GF can leave the node, then go defensive trying to get as many points as possible while positioning you and your ally off the node during the battle.

Domination is not about winning 1v1s. It is about having the most amount of uncontested time on nodes. Remember that when a GF guards, they can barely move. If you can engage a GF before they get on the node, they either have to duck walk to you while you destroy their guard (and you get points from the node), or they have to charge at you, taking all the damage you want to dish out.

If a group of guardians are completely controlling mid, then send people there 1 or 2 at a time to continually die and contest the point, while you cap their far node. You'll win the game while they are busy being defensive for one node.

marvandmartian · May 2013

the guardians I have played against don't even try to fight they just sit there and defend. Ranged does nothing against them if they have their shield to you. If you try to out maneuver them they nock you back and keep their shield to you. Yes you can take them but it takes for ever and they just rinse and repeat with the only focus keeping the point. If the objectives were different it would be fine but for holding points a group of five guardians would have a huge advantage.

marvandmartian · May 2013

For the record I just think they need a weakness or counter to the constant guard. In my opinion every class should have both a class they have an advantage against and a class they have a disadvantage against. This would promote a well rounded team.

pyke1 · May 2013

Haha first off I feel like the amount of damage the GF shield can block is being massively exaggerated. A few Magic Missiles rotations will eat most of it. I have seen this with my own eyes as a GF, and as a CW attacking a GF so don't try to tell me I'm lying. SO. A GF cannot simply sit on a node with his shield up and defend it all day. A CW will just spam Magic Missile at him until he dies or runs away. However a correctly specced GF can push amazing burst damage out, while remaining very very durable. 1v1 you will not beat a good GF. And it honestly should stay that way because we bring little else to the fight other than our ability to get in there and scrap. If you want to kill a GF, just blow his shield and then rotate your CC with your team and burn him down. GF becomes very weak when fighting multiple opponents. Just flank him, cc, and win.

archomental · May 2013

I don't mind the damage they can take, their blocking ability (when used skillfully),
or even their chain stun combos. What I do think is a little much, is the damage
they are capable of doing. There should be a trade off.

Most do not play at high levels, but for the ones who do (like a few in my guild in
max gear), they laugh that they can solo any class with ease except another
good GW.

gankartist · May 2013

Perfectindigo nailed it right on the head, any one who didn't read his response needs to because its the most correct answer any one can give to this subject. Period.

supjeremiah · May 2013

You guys are stupid. One combo of a ranged at-will breaks our guard. Stop trying to facetank us and use some **** strategy.

copticone · May 2013

As a CW, I personally don't have any issues with GF's.
But I do have a problem seeing DPS GFs out dpsing a GWF and sometimes even CWs in PvE. That just doesn't make sense on any level.
What needs to happen is the following:
- Balance offensive outputs between GFs and GWF. Since GF have better mitigation/survivability, then a GWF should outperform them by a decent margin dps wise.
- Change the mechanics of Threat and the current battle mechanics so that a GF "tank" is needed, at least for the harder contents. It doesn't make sense that the ideal party right now is [2x DCs + 3x DPS (CW/TR)].
If you're looking to nerf GF's dps, which I think is a valid argument, you need to create a necessary tanking role, which is currently accomplished by a cleric.

zxorn · May 2013

This is especially funny considering the recent guard bug .
...and multiple previous ones.

etherealj · May 2013

marvandmartian wrote: »

For the record I just think they need a weakness or counter to the constant guard. In my opinion every class should have both a class they have an advantage against and a class they have a disadvantage against. This would promote a well rounded team.

It's so easy to eat away the guard it's silly.

zxorn · May 2013

copticone wrote: »

As a CW, I personally don't have any issues with GF's.
But I do have a problem seeing DPS GFs out dpsing a GWF and sometimes even CWs in PvE. That just doesn't make sense on any level.
What needs to happen is the following:
- Balance offensive outputs between GFs and GWF. Since GF have better mitigation/survivability, then a GWF should outperform them by a decent margin dps wise.
- Change the mechanics of Threat and the current battle mechanics so that a GF "tank" is needed, at least for the harder contents. It doesn't make sense that the ideal party right now is [2x DCs + 3x DPS (CW/TR)].
If you're looking to nerf GF's dps, which I think is a valid argument, you need to create a necessary tanking role, which is currently accomplished by a cleric.

You think the wizard should out dps the fighter? why?
GF and GWF are just variants of Fighter, neither should do more dmg than the other given their respective trees nor do they currently. In fact in my experience of playing both fighter classes the GWF actually has more survivability than the GF in PvP due to constant unstoppable pumps (which is not susceptible to armor pen) and impressive mobility.

Even when they do make threat dummy manageable no GF is going to spec "tank" because the class's talent trees as well as class mechanic (Guard) simply don't allow the role to be accomplished. Tank is a term from back in EQ and WoW. A mechanic that was for the most part forced on players. It doesn't need to have a place in every MMO. They are just classes with different mechanics and different play styles.

The ideal party was never 2xDCs, just because idiots kicked GF from groups doesn't mean they were right.

marvandmartian · May 2013

Ok so I tried the outside ranging a GF's block down and yes sometimes it can work. Other times it doesn't do a **** thing and today I came across a GF that was able to charge and keep me on the ground indefinitely. I play a CW. I don't mind being out played but when one character can hold a point by themselves against any other player that seems unbalanced. On top of that the utility skills that I would normally use to help with a charging target are useless against them. Do other classes fair better against them? Honestly I am thinking of starting one so that I can have the advantage.

chudovishye · May 2013

Nah, you're just not playing right. I've played a number of GFs as my GWF, and typically, one on one, they didn't stand a chance. It's all about how you move and read the signals of their attacks. Players have AOEs and cues to moves, just like enemies in PvE. Pay attention more.

kidbs · May 2013

marvandmartian wrote: »

Ok so I tried the outside ranging a GF's block down and yes sometimes it can work. Other times it doesn't do a **** thing and today I came across a GF that was able to charge and keep me on the ground indefinitely. I play a CW. I don't mind being out played but when one character can hold a point by themselves against any other player that seems unbalanced. On top of that the utility skills that I would normally use to help with a charging target are useless against them. Do other classes fair better against them? Honestly I am thinking of starting one so that I can have the advantage.

You do realize that you can blink behind a GF and control them? A GF can't block attacks that happen behind them. So many people need to L2P in this game it's unreal. My main is an 11k gearscore CW by the way.

chudovishye · May 2013

kidbs wrote: »

You do realize that you can blink behind a GF and control them? A GF can't block attacks that happen behind them. So many people need to L2P in this game it's unreal. My main is an 11k gearscore CW by the way.

One thing to note, though, is although you can get them better from behind, I'm pretty sure (never played as a GF) that their defense is the same whether or not you're facing them. You'll just have an easier time messing with them if you keep taking the rear, provided you don't get mobbed from other players on their team.

howitzer001 · May 2013

perfectindigo wrote: »

If a GF is solo capping your node, here's what you can do:

If you are ranged, attack from outside the node. The GF either has to come off the node (which lets you start getting points from the node) or let you kill them.
If not, you can spend a lot of time fighting that GF on the node. While you're fighting on the node, no one gets points for the node, and the GF can't finish capping it. With knockbacks, the GF may be able to eventually take the node from you, but they still won't be able to get many points since you can easily get back on the node to contest again.
1v1, GFs can last a while if they focus on defense, but they can't kill you unless they drop their guard, in which case it's a free for all and the best 1v1 wins.

If the GF already has the node, then ...
Look at your map. Maybe you can go cap or contest some other node.
If not, and you really want that node and don't want a long fight on the GF's terms, bring one ally. A GF cannot guard from two directions. One person either bursts the GFs guard or simply maneuvers behind the GF and CCs. Obliterate the GF, then leave one person to cap the node while the other person leaves. While killing the GF, don't let the GF lure you off the point. A GF can leave the node, then go defensive trying to get as many points as possible while positioning you and your ally off the node during the battle.

Domination is not about winning 1v1s. It is about having the most amount of uncontested time on nodes. Remember that when a GF guards, they can barely move. If you can engage a GF before they get on the node, they either have to duck walk to you while you destroy their guard (and you get points from the node), or they have to charge at you, taking all the damage you want to dish out.

If a group of guardians are completely controlling mid, then send people there 1 or 2 at a time to continually die and contest the point, while you cap their far node. You'll win the game while they are busy being defensive for one node.

My my everyone, look! Someone with a brain that thinks freely without screaming "nerf this nerf that" the moment they can't win at something.

dkcandy · May 2013

GF's are the BEST 1v1 Class in the game and can beat nearly any other class/build.

So far I've meet only 1 build that is nearly impossible to beat and that's the 99% Stealthed time TR. The issue with the 99% uptime stealth TR is not their stealth but their "Impossible to catch" & Lurkers Assault while stealthed power and cloud of steel. A very well geared/enchanted TR using this build can eat your entire block and then pop their ITC just as stealth is about to finish and then go back into stealth just before/after ITC is up.

This leaves a very small window for the GF to CC chain kill you.

I have no issues with TR's in stealth as we can see you when in melee range. So a good GF will spam a CC skill and will find you, then our CC chain starts and you'll drop 50-100% of your HP.

GWF - Don't stand a chance solo vs. a good GF.
CW - Another easy kill as long as we block a couple heavy attacks.

If a CW wants to even have a chance to kill a good GF, keep your distance and break our shields ASAP and just poke from range. NEVER allow close range combat or you are dead. Do not depend on your daily for the kill as we will block it! Poke Poke Poke. Play just like a TR and keep the GF slowed and kite and you win.

No class is OP only the player behind the keyboard.

chudovishye · May 2013

dkcandy wrote: »

GF's are the BEST 1v1 Class in the game and can beat nearly any other class/build.

So far I've meet only 1 build that is nearly impossible to beat and that's the 99% Stealthed time TR.

No class is OP only the player behind the keyboard.

Funny, I've killed cockier GFs one on one in 60 PvP...as a GWF. Not true on the TRs, they might be invisible to your eye, but in game mechanics they are there, and there are certain skills that, when properly enacted, will hit them regardless and break the invisibility. Last point, awesome, so many people want to be equalized, when it takes practice on the PLAYER'S part.

saruc · May 2013

Im surprised that people are saying that GF are over powered. I play a GF in pvp and pve and they are the most balanced class in teh game atm.

If you wanna talk about unbalanced classes talk about how much CC a CW has or a rogue criting for 41k hp.

Leave the GF alone or else we will riot and not tank any of your dungeons!!

supjeremiah · May 2013

saruc wrote: »

Im surprised that people are saying that GF are over powered. I play a GF in pvp and pve and they are the most balanced class in teh game atm.

If you wanna talk about unbalanced classes talk about how much CC a CW has or a rogue criting for 41k hp.

Leave the GF alone or else we will riot and not tank any of your dungeons!!

The only way a Rogue is critting for 30k+ in PvP is if you're <10% health in which case you would have died from a 5k hit anyways.

guardians need nerf for pvp

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