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Balance suggestions from a 4e tabletop player
karandordaoc
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 51
So the game has some issues but it is a ton of fun to play. It's made my group of friends return to our 4th ed pen and paper characters after a number of months not playing them. I think this game is actually very close to being just right. The main problems are GF and GWF not filling their defined roles and 2 clerics making everything easy mode.
What are the fixes needed? Here's my take on things:
1. Astral shield should no longer stack. Period. This is bad for PvE and PvP balance and needs to be removed. How will parties deal the the crazy impossible encounters without this crutch? Fighters will do their job.
2. GF and GWF should mark every target they hit with every attack. This mark should give the enemies a -10% damage debuff when they attack anyone who is not the fighter that marked them. This is right out of the table top game (-2 to hit, not damage reduction but it accomplishes the same thing) and is something that should be transferred to all future defenders. Now instead of double astral shield you have marks + shield. Would work in PvP as well. GF should have increased damage versus marked targets and have a lot of talents based on this mechanic. Increased damage reduction, even more damage against marked targets, etc.
3. Cleric aggro fixed; when you do the taking off all your equipment, slot soothe (HUGE threat reduction passive) and put all your equipment back on threat is quite managable. Our (I play a cleric) threat should be at that level WITHOUT that passive and the passive should reduce it further. This will make other classes actually have to worry about aggro management and it won't be a case where DPS never have to worry because the cleric will have aggro anyway.
4. GWF should have target limits on powers put up to 10 or removed completely. They should also not do reduced damage when attacking multiple targets with things like wicked strike. Wizards should control adds while GWFs kill them. Make the GWF knockback (the cone shout or whatever it is) more considerable so that they can add to the knocking stuff off cliffs which IMO is a fun part of the game and should be kept.
5. Wizards and Rogues should be left alone. Neither of these classes is OP (PvP excluded but we need to get PvE fixed before we handle that) in PvE it's just that the fighter's roles are not properly defined. The both actually feel a lot like the tabletop classes and they fill their niche well.
Love this game and I want it to do well because 4e has a huge amount of classes and races I would love to see added to this game. I want, one day, to be able to make my Dragonborn Warlord or Half-orc Monk, or Goliath Warden. The potential is there and while I think they have the Leader (mostly), Controller and Striker roles down we need them to work on the defenders and defender-hybrids.
edit: GF and GWF marks would not stack BTW, GF mark would take precedence.
What are the fixes needed? Here's my take on things:
1. Astral shield should no longer stack. Period. This is bad for PvE and PvP balance and needs to be removed. How will parties deal the the crazy impossible encounters without this crutch? Fighters will do their job.
2. GF and GWF should mark every target they hit with every attack. This mark should give the enemies a -10% damage debuff when they attack anyone who is not the fighter that marked them. This is right out of the table top game (-2 to hit, not damage reduction but it accomplishes the same thing) and is something that should be transferred to all future defenders. Now instead of double astral shield you have marks + shield. Would work in PvP as well. GF should have increased damage versus marked targets and have a lot of talents based on this mechanic. Increased damage reduction, even more damage against marked targets, etc.
3. Cleric aggro fixed; when you do the taking off all your equipment, slot soothe (HUGE threat reduction passive) and put all your equipment back on threat is quite managable. Our (I play a cleric) threat should be at that level WITHOUT that passive and the passive should reduce it further. This will make other classes actually have to worry about aggro management and it won't be a case where DPS never have to worry because the cleric will have aggro anyway.
4. GWF should have target limits on powers put up to 10 or removed completely. They should also not do reduced damage when attacking multiple targets with things like wicked strike. Wizards should control adds while GWFs kill them. Make the GWF knockback (the cone shout or whatever it is) more considerable so that they can add to the knocking stuff off cliffs which IMO is a fun part of the game and should be kept.
5. Wizards and Rogues should be left alone. Neither of these classes is OP (PvP excluded but we need to get PvE fixed before we handle that) in PvE it's just that the fighter's roles are not properly defined. The both actually feel a lot like the tabletop classes and they fill their niche well.
Love this game and I want it to do well because 4e has a huge amount of classes and races I would love to see added to this game. I want, one day, to be able to make my Dragonborn Warlord or Half-orc Monk, or Goliath Warden. The potential is there and while I think they have the Leader (mostly), Controller and Striker roles down we need them to work on the defenders and defender-hybrids.
edit: GF and GWF marks would not stack BTW, GF mark would take precedence.
Post edited by karandordaoc on
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2) ABSOLUTELY, make the tab ability a threat reset mark...
3) See below... I have an idea
Embrace 4e mechanics and things will work out...
Healing surges --- Adding this in normal 4e game terms would be impossible (well , no.. but very difficult )... but to put it in cryptic mmo terms, make the ratio of healing surges + Constitution bonus the amount of additional (note threat below) healing. Call it healing surge.
Base is 6 so....
Defenders get 150% heals
Leaders get 115% heals
Strikers get normal heals
Controllers get normal Heals
ADD 15% for each 2 points of Constitution above 10
Make the additional healing .. threat from the target, not the caster.
Tanks now generate extra threat when healed, are easier to heal.... DPS which attempts to tank, gets the attention appropriate.. but not excessive.
And certain striker classes (con warlock) now CORRECTLY heal faster and generate extra threat (glass cannon syndrome...)
Of course, in order to balance the numbers, heals would have to be reduced 30% (gross estimate)
2nd -
No penalty for self-heal... Most DC group heals should NOT heal the caster... 4e powers. I realize the makes the economy side favor the cleric... that will auto-adjust. If clerics aren't buying pots, people will expect them to pay for other things... Make combat rez a sink for cleric.. if anyone can do it... let them do it at range, but require mats.
I would love for healing word to be 25% HP plus bonuses not a HoT... but I feel that will never happen.
Powers that cost healing surges - 12 second debuff (*) removing 15% of "healing surge" for each 4e healing surge given up...
Powers that give healing surges -- 12 second buff (*) that adds 15% to "Healing Surge"
* stacks, but no time reset
The more closely you mimic the ruleset, the easier it is to add content... over the long run, this will save you a LOT of money.. and meetings.
Assumptions - 12 seconds is an encounter
120 seconds is a daily... adjust numbers accordingly if i'm off on the timing
Marks - I disagree, marks should override (as per 4e).. This allows you to have mult tanks
GWF - is designed as a multi-target tank (with great healing needs.. but better ranged avoidance... )
GF - is designed as a single-target tank (with much less need for heals ... except from spells ... they have awful reflex scores and are killed by ranged)
Mark causes DR just makes sense.
In a perfect world this would be great. However the problem in almost all fights is not the boss.. its the adds. The GF needs abilities to control ADDS and a LOT of them. The reality is almost anyone can tank the bosses...
The above changes would take care of the adds. Auto-mark and GF producing threat from being healed would keep the adds on the tank, unless strikers or other tanks peeled them off.
the part where Marked enemies do less damage to enemies other than the GF, it's a 10% Debuff in the Tactician Paragon Tree.
Sounds about right, apparently the idea of a harder boss battle is just throw in more adds instead of making the boss itself more difficult or giving it stronger mechanics. forget that nonsense, just make more adds spawn faster, maybe make the boss heal from adds so the fight lasts longer and you burn away all your mana..oh wait.. no just makes the fight last longer.
yes, just need to change the feat to "do an additional 2/4/6/8/10% damage reduction". Fixed.
If we compare to the tabletop mark effect it should gives an attack roll penalty of 2 (on a 20 side-dice) to the marked creature against allies of the one who marked it (roughly 10%) and it's not even a class feature, it's an effect, like stun, blind, combat advantage (it would be like giving the combat advantage class feature to the rogue only, that doesn't make more senses, and doesn't give a good representation of the fighter).
If mark is the class feature of the guardian fighter, if you plan to add another tank you will want them to mark too, since it's a "tank" / defender feature. I mean it would suck to have all the tank classes with the same lack-luster class feature.
The class feature of the fighter should be Combat Challenge, the punishment served to the one who ignore him. Like the paladin, swordmage and warden, they all differ not by the fact they mark but how their powers applies the mark condition and whats the punishment to ignore it. There's no threat in D&D 4e, the tank mechanic act as a discouragement for the his marked target to hit his allies, they either hit the defender or take his retaliation.
The combat challenge feature is the real class feature of a guardian fighter, it's a free additional attack each time a marked target hit one of his ally while he is not included (will not trigger in an AoE he's included in. ) How you could put it in the game?
Guardian Fighter Class feature
Combat Challenge
10 seconds cooldown.
"Trigger: A target affected by your mark does damage to an ally.
(Consider that if you are included in an AoE or you took damage from that attack then the mark should be removed before as usual, not triggering combat challenge)
Activate the combat challenge feature for 5 sec.
Combat Challenge allow you to charge at the target dealing moderate damage and cause an high amount of threat on the target. Target is also immobilize for 1 second."
(I think immobilize would help vs running target, the bane of threatening rush)
Now you fix two issue:
1) A fun and meaningful class feature that really give a good feeling to the class.
2) A threat mechanic to make him a real single-target tank as he's supposed to be in the game.
and even:
3) You set up a way to make the GF an unique tank vs other tank class(es) that you might include in the game if you feel like it.
You then keep Threatening rush and enforced threat as a mark generator and you then add a mark condition from Tide of Iron and for the third swing of cleave and crushing surge. You now have 4 at-wills that can put the mark condition, 2 quickly and 2 not focused primary to mark, but can do it. Enforced threat remains the main mass-mark targeting power, fighter doesn't need more AoE threat, it's the GWF to kill them or the CW to control them or if not, DR deal with them.
You can even add a feat or two to this power. Wherever it seems adequate. Like:
Distracting Shield
Your combat challenge power also reduce the amount of damage done by the target by 2/4/6/8/10 % for the next 6 seconds. (good protector feat for both PvE and PvP)
Shield Push
Your combat challenge as 20/40/60/80/100% chance to knock your target and leave him prone instead of immobilizing him. (Good again for PvE and PvP and give a bit more utility to Pin cushion and trample the fallen that are barely used since the lack of control power of the guardian fighter.)
Potent challenge
Increase the damage done by your combat challenge feature by 5/10/15% and also giving you 1/2/3% of your max hp as temporary Hit points.
Just my 2 cents. Feel free to comment or modifying my idea.