Why we desperately need a zoom out feature in the dialogue editor...

raphaeldisanto · May 2013

I'll just link it here. I won't embed it, because at 1920x1080, this is 10 screens wide.

This is a screenshot of a dialogue I'm currently working on. It is probably about 65% finished. There's lots more to write.

http://tarskstavern.com/dialogue.png

Can haz zoom out, plz cryptic?

zahinder · May 2013

Agreed. I was almost unable to finish a dialog because I could JUST BARELY get cross links in the same window.

thesabotender · May 2013

agreed, I have a rather large conversation too.

Zahinder, you can scroll while dragging a crosslink (dont lett go of left mouse, click middlemouse) but its still a pain

cipher9nemo · May 2013

Agreed. While I don't make any insane conversations like that one (I use more NPCs with smaller convos per NPC), I do think the Foundry system for making and showing conversations is obscenely dumbed-down. Not only is there no zoom, but we can only do linear dialog. We can't link to other dialog, which would eliminate some of these problems.

rathenau15 · May 2013

Agreed, linking multiple dialogues together would solve a lot of issues. Or a better interface, I can't imagine that the game was developed using this primitive tool set.

kamaliicious · May 2013

rathenau15 wrote: »

Agreed, linking multiple dialogues together would solve a lot of issues. Or a better interface, I can't imagine that the game was developed using this primitive tool set.

Because it wasn't.

raphaeldisanto · May 2013

True, it wasn't, although you can tell where Cryptic's designers' heads are at. While there's lots of mechanical things we can't do in the Foundry that you see in the game, you could easily do the in-game conversations using the Foundry dialogue editor.

I'll admit that that's probably the biggest conversation in my quest currently, but most of mine are fairly weighty. In most RPGs (NW included), NPCs are often relegated to expositional info-dumps and order-givers. i.e. they give you (a little) background info, and then they tell you what to do. Neverwinter's no different. Watch, next time you accept a quest from an NPC. They'll tell you some stuff, then give you your marching orders. Go here, do this. Boring, but typical, and I don't expect anything more, frankly.

I've never been satisfied with that kind of interaction, which is why, for all their faults, BioWare games still hook me in. In most cRPGs, NPCs talk -at- you. In BioWare games, they talk -with- you. They have conversations. That's why you hear BioWare fans talking about their favorite NPCs, the ones they liked, they ones they didn't like. They have personalities, and you discover those personalities via their actions and their words in-game. They're not infodumps. They're characters in their own right. They add the Character to Non-Player Character.

And for me, the joy of cRPGs has always been interacting with NPCs. I'm a highly social person in real life (Unlike many gamers, I very firmly score the big fat E on the Myers-Briggs), and I like social interactions - And the RP in RPG for me, is all about having the opportunity to select appropriate conversation responses for the personality of the character I happen to be playing at that time. It's like acting, right?

As always, we make what we like - And so my foundry conversations are exactly that - conversations. If you look at that image, you'll see that it's not actually that complex a tree - The maximum number of options I give a player is, I think, maybe 4. This isn't about providing a bajillion possible responses to any given NPC prompt to cover everything a player might want to choose. But even with only providing 2 or 3, the tree gets pretty wide.

Like I said, it's obvious that it wasn't specifically designed to allow us to do this kind of NPC interaction. It's designed for the typical NPC - Press '1' a bunch of times and you're done. But since it does support branching dialogue, and some of us are novelists who love to write dialogue, I think a zoom feature might be quite handy

zovya · May 2013

kamaliicious wrote: »

Because it wasn't.

Even if it were, I don't think there is anywhere near half this amount of dialogue anywhere in the Cryptic quests.

kamaliicious · May 2013

zovya wrote: »

Even if it were, I don't think there is anywhere near half this amount of dialogue anywhere in the Cryptic quests.

Because Cryptic quests are action-rpg style questing. NWO is an action-rpg, so that's what the quests are.

raphaeldisanto · May 2013

kamaliicious wrote: »

Because Cryptic quests are action-rpg style questing. NWO is an action-rpg, so that's what the quests are.

Actually, in this context, NW is a typical RPG. Action RPG simply describes the type and feel of combat, not the level and depth of dialogue. Under your definition all RPGs (except for something like Dragon Age: Origins) would be action-rpgs, since pretty much all RPGs have Neverwinter-style dialogue, with some exceptions by people like BioWare or Bethesda.

lovepeas · May 2013

I would love a zoom out feature! In other dialog news, I am not able to have someone put a stop to an evil plan or put a calming hand on a shoulder or even put a piece of the puzzle together because apparently "put a" is a profane word. I know it's referring a dirty word in another language, but even with a space in it? It seems like that is a bit overboard.

kamaliicious · May 2013

raphaeldisanto wrote: »

Actually, in this context, NW is a typical RPG. Action RPG simply describes the type and feel of combat, not the level and depth of dialogue. Under your definition all RPGs (except for something like Dragon Age: Origins) would be action-rpgs, since pretty much all RPGs have Neverwinter-style dialogue, with some exceptions by people like BioWare or Bethesda.

Actually, they call it an action-rpg themselves, here among many other places using this exact wording,
such as this official promotion giving codes for redeeming inside the game.

"Explore and defend one of the most beloved cities from Dungeons & Dragons as it rises from the ashes of destruction," reads the game's description. "This action RPG set in an immersive MMO world will take you from the besieged walls of the city to subterranean passageways in search of forgotten secrets and lost treasure."

So think of it however you want, but they call it an action-rpg. NWO is a diablo style action-rpg game, just using a different camera.

raphaeldisanto · May 2013

I never said it wasn't an action RPG

It definitely is, but that's more due to the faster and more flowing combat than the style of dialogue used in the quest text. That's all I was saying

Let me clarify. You said this:

kamaliicious wrote: »

Because Cryptic quests are action-rpg style questing. NWO is an action-rpg, so that's what the quests are.

Which implies that because it's an action RPG, it has naturally terse NPC dialogue.

My only point was that generally, all cRPGs have this style of terse dialogue, whether action-style or not. Only a few exceptions by BioWare and Bethesda have real dialogue.

raphaeldisanto · May 2013

lovepeas wrote: »

I would love a zoom out feature! In other dialog news, I am not able to have someone put a stop to an evil plan or put a calming hand on a shoulder or even put a piece of the puzzle together because apparently "put a" is a profane word. I know it's referring a dirty word in another language, but even with a space in it? It seems like that is a bit overboard.

Indeed. You have to find another way to phrase what you want to say.

I was trying to have an NPC talk about how he wanted to "put a" ring on another NPC's finger, but of course, I could not. So I changed it to 'slip a ring on her finger'

zahinder · May 2013

I'd have to double-check, but I believe you can enable/disable dialog options based on dialog options from other conversations.

So you CAN link dialogs, in that sense -- your conversation with a drow ambassador could influence the type of options you have to talk to the dwarves ambassador, and vice versa.

raphaeldisanto · May 2013

Zahinder is correct.

There are, however, two caveats.

1. You can only enable/disable dialogue options (in this way) in Contact Dialogues, you cannot affect dialogue options within an Objective Dialogue. I assume this is to prevent a quest from being in an 'uncomplete-able' state due to missing an important dialogue option earlier in the story, and having no way to go back to replay the offending conversation.

2. You can only base the enable/disable on Dialogues within the same map. So you cannot talk to an NPC (i.e. your quest giver) at the start of the quest, then have that conversation affect a conversation you have with a subsequent NPC.

The only way to work around both these limitations is to use quest items.

syyn · May 2013

agreed - would love to have a zoom feature in the dialog editors.

worndown · May 2013

Eesh. That is quite long. The Good thing is that I am lazy and when I see stuff like this in a foundry map I tend to not read them. Or skim over them.

Though we don't really need a zoom out feature. Just make it so that convo's cut off after a certain length instead of showing the entire thing.

meedacthunist · May 2013

Would be nice to have this feature.

Though I can live without it being more used to TES toolsets with rather brief dialogue options available for players.
But more tools is always better.

raphaeldisanto · May 2013

And while we're on the subject, when you have a dialogue option that (due to sub options) stretches wider than the width of a screen, you can't click on it to bring up the text, unless you're at the left-side of the box.

*grin* .. When I actually get done with this conversation, maybe I'll post a final screenshot in here so you guys can all tell me again how my conversations are too long

Why we desperately need a zoom out feature in the dialogue editor...

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