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Tank-y Wizard Discussion -- Thoughts & Opinions
imivo
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 1,682 Bounty Hunter
A few days ago, in my "sorta blog" about my oppressor experiment, a bunch of us wizards talked a bit about a "battle mage". Basically, a tank-y build that can handle getting hit and that combines crowd control, kiting (ranged tanking, sort of) with AoE-ish damage and debuffing.
I don't know if this is viable, and I partly doubt it, but I wanted to see what people think about it. To get this discussion started, below are a few points from both the previous exchange and stuff that's on my mind:
- Human is probably the best choice, both for the 3% bonus to Defense and the extra feats. I still like Tiefling a lot and feel that the racials are useful for a build like this, but the human's the extra feats translate to 3/3 Toughness and 9% extra HP (or more damage/more AP). Thoughts?
- The stats focus would be on +HP, Defense and Recovery. Vaeledrin mentioned the 30k HP figure as a goal. I only toyed around with tank-y stats with my L30 (currently) secondary wizard and I felt that some kind of healing would really help a great deal. Both Life Steal and Regeneration seem lackluster, though. Of the two, Life Steal looked more promising, but this is not based on any extensive testing. Having to quaff five potions per group of mobs is not desirable, neither is depending on the rank 15 cleric companion (barely viable at 60).
- Without blocking, I don't think it's really viable to "face tank" mobs. A few hits, yes, it's unavoidable in inevitable close quarter combat, but it can't be played like a GF. This means pushback abilities are desirable. We have at our disposal Shield, Repel, Ice Storm, and the Severe Reaction feat in the Oppressor tree. Arcane Singularity serves the same purpose (getting mobs off of the wizard).
- Debuffing and AoE control powers with side-effects are desirable, which makes Icy Terrain, Enfeebling Ray and the Cold Infusion feat (chilled mobs do 1-5% less damage). Icy Rays synergizes well with Cold Infusion and Icy Terrain.
- I question that a CW can hold aggro against even other damage dealers. My renegade wizard does very respectable damage and yet it is rare that he pulls aggro off of anyone (certainly not clerics). I think actual wizard tanking in groups is not viable (speculation only). The purpose of a build like this would be PvP (making it less of a gib fest), solo foundry questing, solo questing in general. A less squishy and twitchy playstyle, perhaps.
- The Acolyte of Kelemvor companion (2000 Zen) provides 10% damage reduction (what's the uptime of the shield?) and a buff to Life Steal. She provides a flat LS value plus an increase of the total LS. Does anyone know the actual values? Loading up the Cat with Defense/Recovery gear (HP does not work) may still be the superior choice, depending on actual LS values and DR shield uptime of the Acolyte.
- Spell slots are limited and there are more candidates than space. Which spells would you choose for a build like this?
- Feats: I think Oppressor is probably the best choice here. Toughness, Fight On and Prestidigitation are probably mandatory, with some flexibility when it comes to the remaining heroic feats.
- Attributes, WIS and INT are the obvious choices, or perhaps something more balanced. I would go with 16/16/12 (INT/WIS/CHA) before any bonuses. Could be interesting to put the human's +2 into WIS. No such option with the Tiefling (I don't think +2 CON is as valuable as alternative of +2 INT, not even for a tank-y build -- what do you think?).
All right, let's hear what you folks think!
I do not know whether something like this is really viable. It could just be a pipe dream, really!
I don't know if this is viable, and I partly doubt it, but I wanted to see what people think about it. To get this discussion started, below are a few points from both the previous exchange and stuff that's on my mind:
- Human is probably the best choice, both for the 3% bonus to Defense and the extra feats. I still like Tiefling a lot and feel that the racials are useful for a build like this, but the human's the extra feats translate to 3/3 Toughness and 9% extra HP (or more damage/more AP). Thoughts?
- The stats focus would be on +HP, Defense and Recovery. Vaeledrin mentioned the 30k HP figure as a goal. I only toyed around with tank-y stats with my L30 (currently) secondary wizard and I felt that some kind of healing would really help a great deal. Both Life Steal and Regeneration seem lackluster, though. Of the two, Life Steal looked more promising, but this is not based on any extensive testing. Having to quaff five potions per group of mobs is not desirable, neither is depending on the rank 15 cleric companion (barely viable at 60).
- Without blocking, I don't think it's really viable to "face tank" mobs. A few hits, yes, it's unavoidable in inevitable close quarter combat, but it can't be played like a GF. This means pushback abilities are desirable. We have at our disposal Shield, Repel, Ice Storm, and the Severe Reaction feat in the Oppressor tree. Arcane Singularity serves the same purpose (getting mobs off of the wizard).
- Debuffing and AoE control powers with side-effects are desirable, which makes Icy Terrain, Enfeebling Ray and the Cold Infusion feat (chilled mobs do 1-5% less damage). Icy Rays synergizes well with Cold Infusion and Icy Terrain.
- I question that a CW can hold aggro against even other damage dealers. My renegade wizard does very respectable damage and yet it is rare that he pulls aggro off of anyone (certainly not clerics). I think actual wizard tanking in groups is not viable (speculation only). The purpose of a build like this would be PvP (making it less of a gib fest), solo foundry questing, solo questing in general. A less squishy and twitchy playstyle, perhaps.
- The Acolyte of Kelemvor companion (2000 Zen) provides 10% damage reduction (what's the uptime of the shield?) and a buff to Life Steal. She provides a flat LS value plus an increase of the total LS. Does anyone know the actual values? Loading up the Cat with Defense/Recovery gear (HP does not work) may still be the superior choice, depending on actual LS values and DR shield uptime of the Acolyte.
- Spell slots are limited and there are more candidates than space. Which spells would you choose for a build like this?
- Feats: I think Oppressor is probably the best choice here. Toughness, Fight On and Prestidigitation are probably mandatory, with some flexibility when it comes to the remaining heroic feats.
- Attributes, WIS and INT are the obvious choices, or perhaps something more balanced. I would go with 16/16/12 (INT/WIS/CHA) before any bonuses. Could be interesting to put the human's +2 into WIS. No such option with the Tiefling (I don't think +2 CON is as valuable as alternative of +2 INT, not even for a tank-y build -- what do you think?).
All right, let's hear what you folks think!
I do not know whether something like this is really viable. It could just be a pipe dream, really! Unsure about skills and feats? Check the Master List of Class Builds!
Post edited by imivo on
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I just got 60. I've been running Severe Reaction 5 in PVP content.
The pushback is beyond useless. It might not even be working. However, it does proc a lot, which means you're teleporting a TON. Useful, despite the weird/bad pushback.
Another thing to consider is that Reaction only works within 20 feet. So would you/should you spec your Powers to operate inside that range? Icy Terrain, Shield, Steal Time and Shard all work in a similar range. I suspect it would work very well for soloing.
The 30k HP is really meant for PvP so you can survive the Rogue Daily which means you can probably retaliate and kill the Rogue in question. However, for PvE it isn't necessary and you can probably face tank with enough defense/deflection gear and with mobs dealing 5% less damage. You also have a face-tanking daily and that's Maelstrom of Chaos... I mean really if you wanted to do something like that (things that normally would take you down to 10% health on any wizard would just dent you - it's your own astral shield/Hallowed Ground! - anecdotal observation).
Furthermore, I think that using repel/shield is actually AGAINST what you desire . When you use a control power you gain 10% to your At-Will. Combine this with Reaper's Touch and also with Chilling Cloud. So you'll be doing 50% more damage up close with your At-Wills in AoE fashion and taking 13% .. less damage I think? Combine this with a hefty amount of deflect and maybe some life steal and you should be okay for PvE.
PvP would look closer to this: Enfeeble in Tab, Icy Ray, Entangling, and Chill Strike. MoC / Ice Knife as dailies. Passives would be Chilling Presence and Eye of the Storm.
PvE I would take something like this: Chill Strike (or Conduit or Entangling) in Tab, Icy Terrain, Sudden Storm, Steal Time. It'll be more of a proc based set up since everything offers a lot of mini hits. Sudden storm has 6 hits total (3 primary and 3 minor) etc. So your enchants would still be tenebrous / greater plague fire with passives of Chilling Presence/ Eye of the Storm.
In PvE I imagine you'll be constantly blinking around taking things out. It might be pretty **** funny actually.
In dungeons I agree with you, but I heard there is a threat reduction passive issue with clerics (not sure about it though). So maybe some day ?
I don't know much about pvp, but it's usually a good thing to survive ! Area of effect spells do not work very well though, because players are a bit more clever than mobs and don't tend to stay in the aoe.
So what role I see for a tanky wizard is dealing sustained aoe damage and cc, either alone against large groups or capable or teleporting into aoes to cc everything, save the cleric, and run away.
Race
I think race is more a matter of style than stats, but I do agree 3 feats would be neat as you want the +9% hp and would miss some good heroic feats otherwise.
Feats :
Here's my opinion on oppressor :
- Severe reaction : heard it does not work at the moment so I dont know
- Bitter cold : +5% damage everytime : okay why not
- Brisk transport : will 10% run speed save you ? Not sure.
- Chilling control : Not 100% chance ? But if it is applied to all targets it could be fun
- Cold infusion : 5% damage reduction with chill ? Unless it stacks, and tooltip suggests it doesnt, it's not much.
- Controlled momentum : if you want to spam chilling cloud, ok. But probably you will be kiting and casting encounter spells with little to no time for anything else.
- Alacrity is good though if you use Icy terrain.
- Glacial movement : you won't use this spell if you want aoe
For pve I'd suggest thaumaturge to strengthen your aoe debuffing strategy with 15% aoe debuff on ice conduit and 10% debuff on your arcane encounters (like shield and steal time).
I think oppressor is a pvp-oriented tree ?
Stats :
Life steal may also be on option if stacked, if you want to drink less potions.
Deflection would be useful only if you hit the defense cap (not likely).
+ Hit points stat gives you more survivability than defense at level 60 (of course it depends of what + hp and defense you already have), but would cost more potions to heal.
Spells I would use :
- Every aspect of shield would fits well in your strategy (a little survivability + aoe knockback and damage without max targets). Repel would need the mastery slot to be useful and even then would only affects 7 targets. I think one knockback spell is enough to wait for your other cooldowns or for vigor.
- Steal Time because it's a aoe slow + stun + damage. Or Icy terrain because it adds chill.
- Arcane singularity because the cc is so long !
- In mastery slot, Conduit of ice (sustains your chill stacks) or maybe chill strike (since it is enhanced by oppressor - but will it apply 3 stacks to all enemy hit ?).
- Icy terrain ? I don't like the spell
- Don't forget you need to kill mobs too ^^