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Who goes first?

zepheazephea Member Posts: 120 Arc User
edited May 2013 in PvE Discussion
There is a group of 5 of us - whatever random that the queue has put together - and I'm on a DC. We come to a group of mobs and.... there is polite hanging back.

So... who goes first and what do they do? Various scenarios would be helpful.
~*~ Sparkles! ~*~



The MMO may change but the inventory tetris stays the same.
Post edited by zephea on

Comments

  • m3atba9m3atba9 Member Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    What random dungeons are we talking about? T1-2 or whatever random dungeon comes up as you level? From what I have seen and heard so far untill you get to T2 it really does not matter who goes first. My experiences in lower end dungeons has been akin to complete chaos for the most part. This game does not seem to support or require "standard" MMO class roles.
  • aftorianaftorian Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    If I understand the question correctly, it should be the ranged ones first, with the wizard casting spells that slow down the enemies progress as they run toward you, and as they finally reach you, the tanks should be there to great. So, in short...the cleric if he has ranged, the the wizard to slow the monsters progress, then the melee guys.
  • roninthehoodroninthehood Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 184 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    It is a ignorant question. In any scenario, In any dungeon, With any group that has a tank.... Tank should go first. ( no it does not matter if it is easy or hard). Tank goes in. gathers mobs. hits his aoe taunt. ( tanks at 60 have 4 aoe taunts). tank hits one or two of his aoe taunts THEN.... the team opens up. It is really that simple and makes for a better run dungeon at ANY level. ANY difficulty. Period.
  • zepheazephea Member Posts: 120 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    But whoever goes first is likely to get aggro first? I'm hoping that people's experiences will give me a better idea of aggro and mob AI design in this game. Practical examples are good. I am not yet at T1 T2 but examples from there would be very helpful so I can think about it when I come to it.

    So eg, I'm on a DC and we're in chasm. The party is 2 CW, 1 rogue, 1 fighter (not great weapon). We all stand there politely when we come to the next group of mobs.

    If I cast a astral seal first (cos no one else is stepping up ) am I going to get aggro?
    m3atba9 wrote: »
    What random dungeons are we talking about? T1-2 or whatever random dungeon comes up as you level? From what I have seen and heard so far untill you get to T2 it really does not matter who goes first. My experiences in lower end dungeons has been akin to complete chaos for the most part. This game does not seem to support or require "standard" MMO class roles.

    I'm not so fussed about the roles as I guess I haven't established social norms/understanding of how to manipulate mob AI.

    I suspect as usual the way I'm going to instinctively work this out is watching others (in groups) play...
    ~*~ Sparkles! ~*~



    The MMO may change but the inventory tetris stays the same.
  • zepheazephea Member Posts: 120 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    roninthehood wrote: »
    It is a ignorant question. In any scenario, In any dungeon, With any group that has a tank.... Tank should go first. ( no it does not matter if it is easy or hard). Tank goes in. gathers mobs. hits his aoe taunt. ( tanks at 60 have 4 aoe taunts). tank hits one or two of his aoe taunts THEN.... the team opens up. It is really that simple and makes for a better run dungeon at ANY level. ANY difficulty. Period.

    See you've raised a good question (and the insult of it being an ignorant question is not needed). Define 'tank'.

    Tank could be one of the CW (we have no great weapon fighter in our group). A 'tank' doesn't haven't to go toe to toe - they could go ranged - all the have to do is hold aggro and minimize the amount of damage they take (in a CW case that will be by moving out of the way instead of blocking).

    Part of why I am asking this is because I keep hearing the optimum grouping for T2 is 2 DC, 2 CW and 1 rogue.
    ~*~ Sparkles! ~*~



    The MMO may change but the inventory tetris stays the same.
  • supersaiyansonsupersaiyanson Member Posts: 41
    edited May 2013
    roninthehood wrote: »
    It is a ignorant question. In any scenario, In any dungeon, With any group that has a tank.... Tank should go first. ( no it does not matter if it is easy or hard). Tank goes in. gathers mobs. hits his aoe taunt. ( tanks at 60 have 4 aoe taunts). tank hits one or two of his aoe taunts THEN.... the team opens up. It is really that simple and makes for a better run dungeon at ANY level. ANY difficulty. Period.

    This guy is pro, his tank has 4 aoe taunts.
  • vaichanavaichana Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 91
    edited May 2013
    Except the CW will get two shotted if anything gets to it. If you have a GF, then the GF goes first, simple as that. Lunge forward (or pull back with mark when lunging will get more mobs than intended), then pop enforced threat/villain's menace/frontline surge for aoe damage, and start hacking on everything to keep aggro. Threat in this game is a "fulltime" job. There aren't snap taunt abilities that place you on top of the threat list. And heals are **** annoying threat wise because 1) they just generate too much threat and 2) they are ALWAYS generating threat as long as you are healing people. So the "tank" just has to beat the hell out of enemies constantly to keep their attention.
    supersaiyanson wrote: »
    This guy is pro, his tank has 4 aoe taunts.
    Yeah I was wondering too.... considering that there is nothing like a "taunt" in this game (there are two abilities that FORCE enemies to attack you for brief amounts of time, one aoe and one single target, but once that time is expired you either built enough threat or they resume happily beating on their previous target) I have no clue what he's referring about. I suppose it would be Enforced Threat, Knight's Valor, and Supremacy of Steel. Enforced is one of the two abilities that force enemies to focus you, while the others generate theorically more threat, but are far from being taunts... don't know about the 4th really...
  • laktoulaktou Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    zephea wrote: »
    There is a group of 5 of us - whatever random that the queue has put together - and I'm on a DC. We come to a group of mobs and.... there is polite hanging back.

    So... who goes first and what do they do? Various scenarios would be helpful.

    This is quiet simple really, don't random queue, create a group with 2 Clerics and they will always be the first to engage since, you know, they are the leaders of the group ! They will put down 2 holy blue circles of sweet madness and from there, hack & slash the monsters.

    Rinse & repeat.
  • icyclassicyclass Member Posts: 207 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    zephea wrote: »
    If I cast a astral seal first (cos no one else is stepping up ) am I going to get aggro?
    You're a cleric, you're pretty much going to get agro no matter what. My feeling is that you should let some tank go first so they'll at least be between you and the mobs.
    laktou wrote: »
    They will put down 2 holy blue circles of sweet madness and from there, hack & slash the monsters.
    FYI clerics don't get Astral Shield until level 50, so you're going to need a different strategy until then.
  • novronnovron Member Posts: 84 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    vaichana wrote: »
    Except the CW will get two shotted if anything gets to it. If you have a GF, then the GF goes first, simple as that. Lunge forward (or pull back with mark when lunging will get more mobs than intended), then pop enforced threat/villain's menace/frontline surge for aoe damage, and start hacking on everything to keep aggro. Threat in this game is a "fulltime" job. There aren't snap taunt abilities that place you on top of the threat list. And heals are **** annoying threat wise because 1) they just generate too much threat and 2) they are ALWAYS generating threat as long as you are healing people. So the "tank" just has to beat the hell out of enemies constantly to keep their attention.


    Yeah I was wondering too.... considering that there is nothing like a "taunt" in this game (there are two abilities that FORCE enemies to attack you for brief amounts of time, one aoe and one single target, but once that time is expired you either built enough threat or they resume happily beating on their previous target) I have no clue what he's referring about. I suppose it would be Enforced Threat, Knight's Valor, and Supremacy of Steel. Enforced is one of the two abilities that force enemies to focus you, while the others generate theorically more threat, but are far from being taunts... don't know about the 4th really...


    Threatening Rush is AoE.
  • fimcontefimconte Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Whoever can pull the mobs fastest to the ledge you're using to knock them off.
    Fans Glory to the Gladiators,
    Gods Glory to the Heroes.

    TR:Anirul Corrino@Fimconte
    GF:Irulan Corrino@Fimconte
  • vaichanavaichana Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 91
    edited May 2013
    novron wrote: »
    Threatening Rush is AoE.

    Threatening rush does not taunt nor has increased threat, it just marks enemies in a small aoe around the target. And mark isn't a taunt.
  • novronnovron Member Posts: 84 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    vaichana wrote: »
    Threatening rush does not taunt nor has increased threat, it just marks enemies in a small aoe around the target. And mark isn't a taunt.

    Well, not technically I suppose. Mark lowers damage resistance and doubles your threat generation.

    Aggravating Strike, however, is supposedly an AoE taunt according to the tooltip in your powers list.
  • zepheazephea Member Posts: 120 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Another thing, which is possibly more of a failed group dynamics thing, I observe that some groups move from closest mob to the next mob, others just the biggest mob. But say there is a mob doing large amounts of party damage just outside the area where everyone is fighting, eg a necromancer, whose responsibility is it to get the aggro of that mob off the party?

    If I sign it I get aggro - and currently I've just started standing behind some party member who can take the hits and watching until they finally notice 'ouch what's hitting me?' and then help me make it dead but I suspect that is not optimal.

    Should a DC take time out to go full steam and kill at this point or should it be someone else?
    ~*~ Sparkles! ~*~



    The MMO may change but the inventory tetris stays the same.
  • vaichanavaichana Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 91
    edited May 2013
    It has increased threat, yes, and a small frontal cone aoe. That's what "taunt" means in this game. Deal with it. There is no snap threat ability, even Enforced Threat and Knight's Challenge only force enemies to attack the GF for their duration, and don't place it on top of the "aggro list".
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