Has someone tried a Saboteur Rogue build?

steppenkat · May 2013

Just curious, as I'd like to try out building a Stealth-oriented TR and would like to know if it's not entirely lame in the endgame.

I'm having a blast playing as a slippery cat burglar with my Half-Drow and using Bait and Switch. Also, I'm thinking of using the At-Will Paragon Power that refills Stealth, but people have told me it's bad. Any thoughts?

adozu · May 2013

i've tried it in beta but my dps was suffering from it quite a bit compared to the critical oriented path (i never tried the middle one) while not offering me that many tools to stay in stealth much longer or benefit it much more. the only feat i really liked from that tree was the one that reduced the stamina needed to roll (i think it was it at least? been a while).

in my opinion the problem lies in the fact that if we assume regardless of the path of your choiche your objective is to keep dps high the top tree offers us a +10% damage while stealthed but the lower one offers us +25% critical severity while stealthed which, if i understand it correctly, equals roughly to +12.5% average damage while stealthed at 50% critical (lvl 60 rogues generally float somewhere slightly below that number) so even if we disregard all the other dps oriented feats the lower tree actually manages to keep competitive with saboteur about stealth efficiency.

of course, that's from a min/maxing perspective, the actual difference is probably small enough to warrant a "go with whatever you enjoy the most".

tenkuro · May 2013

Sab build is great for PVE solo.

e11z · May 2013

I'm personally not going to go for a set build as such, but just go with what I like the look of.

Might be extremely ineffective but it will be my own mistakes and thats what will be a part of me during my play.

I've gone for a mix of all 3 trees so far, not focusing on anything in perticular but going with what suits my play style.

without giving too much, my tactics involve silencing fast and hitting hard whilst maintaining stealth for the maximum time possible.

I'm tempted to bring back the 90% reduction of stealth when hit to remove the 15% standard run speed with 5% crit feature. But I really think mobility is very important ( in pvp ) so I'm focused on fast running speed and the ability to be stealthed when i like.

Glooming slash ( i think you mean) is rubbish in pvp and in pve is too slow IMO. it's completely useless as the stealth drains way too fast to keep it going for long.

I would recommend focusing on buffing stealths duration and using the 90% less stealth reduction when hit (you will have stealth alot more this way) also max the feat that regens stealth when you dodge. I always dodge above halfway of my stealth refilling and it takes 2 dodges to fill it up.
Couple this with the less stealth lost when hit it makes it very nice in pvp and it will mean you can keep it up in pve.

Best at wills imo is the Duelist flurry + Sly flourish. And best tip I can ever give out is to learn how to jump onto your targets whilst using your skills.

It makes you so much more agile and it means you will miss less whilst controlling distances.
(Jump in a direction and as soon as you leave the ground use the skill, if you practice enough you can jump - first hit of Flurry - jump - second hit - Jump - and flurry into them)

Plus it looks awesome :P

e11z · May 2013

adozu wrote: »

i've tried it in beta but my dps was suffering from it quite a bit compared to the critical oriented path (i never tried the middle one) while not offering me that many tools to stay in stealth much longer or benefit it much more. the only feat i really liked from that tree was the one that reduced the stamina needed to roll (i think it was it at least? been a while).

in my opinion the problem lies in the fact that if we assume regardless of the path of your choiche your objective is to keep dps high the top tree offers us a +10% damage while stealthed but the lower one offers us +25% critical severity while stealthed which, if i understand it correctly, equals roughly to +12.5% average damage while stealthed at 50% critical (lvl 60 rogues generally float somewhere slightly below that number) so even if we disregard all the other dps oriented feats the lower tree actually manages to keep competitive with saboteur about stealth efficiency.

of course, that's from a min/maxing perspective, the actual difference is probably small enough to warrant a "go with whatever you enjoy the most".

But isn't that the 10% that Applies to crits anyways?

I ain't good with math and this is all just my first initial thoughts without knowing much about the mechanics.
Lets say for the sake of it:

6 hits 50% crit with 25% Severity. (100% overall I believe)

100
100
100
200
200
200

900.

6 hits with 50% with 10% damage over all. ( 75% severity i believe)
110
110
110
192.5
192.5
192.5

907.5

But to be honest. this is relying on critting half the time. If you crit every single hit for those 6 the Severity is the winner.

My point was you actually may get more dps out of the 10% because it affects all hits during that stealthed period because you are safe guarding an extra 10% damage for every hit.

But like i said - please take this as just my initial surface view on the subject. I'm no expert and I am just showing my first thoughts xD

adozu · May 2013

uhm yeah i guess +10% overall damage could be slightly better if it applied that way (it probably does) but still, it's a negligible difference -on average-, like... 0,8% extra damage.

the problem is that saboteur should put emphasis on stealth effectiveness but it doesn't really make much of a difference to a stealth oriented playstyle compared to the alternative. i think the tree needs more identity.

steppenkat · May 2013

Thank you for your insightful advices!

arnot1 · May 2013

I use a Sab build and love it, but this build is for my play stile (I don’t pvp and don’t raid much). Keep in mind as someone already said its solo pve build. There are much higher dps builds for raids. Basically I focused on anything that would affect my stealth bar and refill my action points. So I went against the grain of primary stat being either power or crit and went for recovery and life steal. I have the 4 piece elusive set +400 recovery and on crit 6 seconds of +900 recovery. I had no idea how this was going to work out and I got to say I was pleasantly surprised. Basically I am in stealth 95% of the time and that 5% is after I pop smoke bomb. Any damage I may take gets refilled rather fast with my life steal I no longer buy hp pots I have been gaining them. I do use glooming slash :O I know but I found it to be very helpful. I use it to take out low hp mobs archers/zombies etc.. and depending on the mob I may have to hit it with sly flourish once and then use glooming slash. I have used this method to take out entire rooms of 15+ mobs without ever leaving stealth or using bait and switch. My daily refreshes extremely fast basically one stealth rotation with a bait and switch. I wish I could tell you my stats but the gateway seems to be down. I know my gear score is around a 9300. Any questions feel free to ask.

casia345 · May 2013

Executioner is the whole package though.

overrun crit is a large dps buff. the duelist flurry debuff gives a huge crit severity buff.
the 5% party crit buff, the crit severity in stealth. etc.

Personally, I went scoundrel just to avoid all the cookie cutter exec... my damage is more then competitive in practice. I still haven't quite figured out why. I would expect to not really even be close. while some extreme static fights executioners can beat me. 9/10 times I win hands down. Any fight with adds, don't stand in the aoe, etc. I win handedly.

Its possible sab will also offer similar real in game advantages.
Executioner, does not offer increased stealth opportunities. its damage relies on rolling bleeds, as well as stacking debuffs/buffs. these take time. Again, its damage is top on a target dummy. but in a fight where you have to get in and out of melee to avoid stacking aoes for example, exec will fall behind.

The two big dps gains in scoundrel are right in the first 2 teirs, obtainable for a sab build as well.

adozu · May 2013

well the need to stack bleed and debuff isn't necessarily related to executioner. i run executioner whitout the flurry severity feat to get nimble blade and advantage buff from scoundrel instaed. crit severity flurry feat is the only one that has a build time.

i think the reason scoundrel might be up there with damage is that the +5% party critical buff doesn't stack so if you have an executioner in team you're functionally benefitting from +5 paragon feat points. also i found myself using impossible to catch a lot to stay onto the enemy rather than rolling in and out lately so the +10% damage during ItC feat might make more of a difference in certain playstyles than i initially gave it credit for when speccing.

in short i believe a cookie-cutter team only needs 1 executioner.

scoundrel 10% defense debuff doesn't stack either so i suppose it's best to have rogues with different specs in your party to max out on this bonuses.

arnot1 · May 2013

One other thing to note is with very high recovery all my encounters refresh faster so faster bait and switch(steath refill) Shadow Strike (steath refill) and smoke bomb (o <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> skill i screwed up the rotation and need a chance to get stealth back).

adozu · May 2013

btw a lot of powers are situationally better on certain specific fights, for example being stealth even 100% of the time doesn't help much against bosses that spam melee AoE like chartilifax. a flexible encounters selection is better than only ever using the same 3.

arnot1 · May 2013

True but I said this was for my play stile I mostly only do foundry quests. I stated there are better builds for raids and group play.

casia345 · May 2013

adozu wrote: »

well the need to stack bleed and debuff isn't necessarily related to executioner. i run executioner whitout the flurry severity feat to get nimble blade and advantage buff from scoundrel instaed. crit severity flurry feat is the only one that has a build time.

i think the reason scoundrel might be up there with damage is that the +5% party critical buff doesn't stack so if you have an executioner in team you're functionally benefitting from +5 paragon feat points. also i found myself using impossible to catch a lot to stay onto the enemy rather than rolling in and out lately so the +10% damage during ItC feat might make more of a difference in certain playstyles than i initially gave it credit for when speccing.

in short i believe a cookie-cutter team only needs 1 executioner.

scoundrel 10% defense debuff doesn't stack either so i suppose it's best to have rogues with different specs in your party to max out on this bonuses.

I also use ItC to keep dpsing, and avoid damage/knockbacks.
however the feat is not 10% damage. its 10% power.
which is probably more like .5% damage. Its kindof terrible.
If you have 3000 power, that is 300 power gain. or +15 damage/healing. 19.5 damage added to your sly flourish in a scoundrel build.
how much does your sly flourish do? 900-1200?
about a 1.6% damage gain. for 6s during ItC. terrible.

It really should be a flat 10% gain, considering how short the duration is. (or more even)

adozu · May 2013

oh yeah, i thought it was +10% damage, +10% power is terrible. i'm glad i didn't touch that now.

penonation · May 2013

I gotta say, I PVP'd against another Rogue who had the full stealth build going and it was the most frustrating thing I've dealt with. So whatever that dude was doing, it was working. As far as PVE goes, as mentioned, a stealth build is mainly for solo play. If you are doing dungeons, the "they can't hit me!" thing isn't as big of a bonus. DPS is more important than survivability in a group environment (in my opinion).

dasblackman · May 2013

I'm currently using Saboteur and it's amazing. Fits my playstyle perfectly and is just something different. Works great for pve, I haven't done much pvp yet but I imagine it would be great as well. Using full Saboteur feat tree as well and I'm currently level 45. I'll see if I can get some hard stats in a second, but I mainly focus on Combat Advantage and crits, with recovery for crazy fast AP gain with tactics.

nemonus · May 2013

I'm full Saboteur and I sort of fell underpowered. I think I should be doing tons more damaged while stealthed and I think I should be stealthed for much longer. If it wasn't so expensive to change the points I spent, I might consider something else. As it stands I'm either going to stick it out or abaddon the character all together. Fun.

l3uck3t · May 2013

penonation wrote: »

I gotta say, I PVP'd against another Rogue who had the full stealth build going and it was the most frustrating thing I've dealt with. So whatever that dude was doing, it was working. As far as PVE goes, as mentioned, a stealth build is mainly for solo play. If you are doing dungeons, the "they can't hit me!" thing isn't as big of a bonus. DPS is more important than survivability in a group environment (in my opinion).

I run the full stealth build and with the speed increase in stealth and deft strike. Its amazing.. In PvE I solo dungeon bosses, and PvP nobody can really get away from me. Its an amazing spec at the moment and I plan on posting soon.

nemonus · May 2013

l3uck3t wrote: »

I run the full stealth build and with the speed increase in stealth and deft strike. Its amazing.. In PvE I solo dungeon bosses, and PvP nobody can really get away from me. Its an amazing spec at the moment and I plan on posting soon.

Please do, because I'm seriously considering a respec here. I just don't feel powerful.

redxhood · May 2013

l3uck3t wrote: »

I run the full stealth build and with the speed increase in stealth and deft strike. Its amazing.. In PvE I solo dungeon bosses, and PvP nobody can really get away from me. Its an amazing spec at the moment and I plan on posting soon.

I'm also full sab build with focus on stealth/mobility, but it just doesn't feel rewarding during fights when anyone can just herp-derp aoe themselves and you're stuck throwing daggers or outheal your gloaming cut or worse yet they do unpredictable stuff like start at willing the air in front of them since even though you;re stealthed, they will out trade you . In one fight with a great weapon fighter, they used two skills on my dummy, destroyed it, and then proceeded to tank and outdamage me after my stealth ran out. It's starting to make me regret not min maxing for dps cookie cutter exec

In PvE though it makes you feel like a master of deception
At will daggers into stealth gloaming cuts, run to your companion who got the agro, put a dummy up, run behind the mobs, gloaming cut, shadow strike, roll, leave combat without taking damage

todesfaelle · May 2013

I didn't take Saboteur, but I'm using a build that maximizes Stealth and its effects. So far I've seen most guides advising not to take the Improved Cunning Sneak feat, but 20% increase in Stealth duration is actually pretty huge, big enough to be noticed. This feat works best when paired with the PVP T1 gear set for Rogues, the Battlefield Scavenger set. Gives another whopping +20% to Stealth. The total amount of +40% to Stealth is incredible, and shows incredible synergistic effects with Shadow Strike and Bait and Switch. You'll get more than 25 seconds of being in Stealth and can be improved further using Lurker's Assault and Invisible Infiltrator, and by the time you get to use that daily, Shadow Strike would have already refilled and Bait and Switch won't be far behind, meaning you can further extend the duration of your Stealth using those 2 skills again.

And if you equip Tactics on, which gives us +15% AP absorption, and with the feat Cunning Stalker from the Saboteur path which gives us +20% more AP when in Stealth, you'll almost always get 70 - 80% of your AP bar filled up. While Bait and Switch is out, you then attack monsters in Stealth, giving you 20% more AP per hit thanks to Cunning Stalker and you also gain another +10% AP from Action Advantage when at full rank. Not to mention you also get to deal more damage in Stealth if you take Underhanded Tactics which increases Combat Advantage effectiveness by 20%.

The other 41 paragon points will go to the executioner path.

I did not expect it, but it also shows effectiveness in PVP. I tend to switch Tactics and Invisible Infiltrator for Sneak Attack and Skillful Infiltrator, depending on what classes the other side has. Players who are not aware of Bait and Switch tend to attack my dummy, hence free AP. Stealth Rogues in PVP with Sneak Attack and Skillful Infiltrator also run as fast as a horse when in Stealth, meaning you can get from hill to hill with minimal detection. Being in stealth makes you less obvious than going by horse. Aim to capture points and disrupt enemy point gain and momentum, halve their attention from fighting in mid to defending the hill being taken away from them, Stealth Rogues are capable of an alternate way of playing PVP; which is to not kill players, but instead concentrate on taking hills and be able to defend yourself when the need to fight arises.

I'd like to write a guide about it one of these days as well.

l3uck3t · May 2013

redxhood wrote: »

I'm also full sab build with focus on stealth/mobility, but it just doesn't feel rewarding during fights when anyone can just herp-derp aoe themselves and you're stuck throwing daggers or outheal your gloaming cut or worse yet they do unpredictable stuff like start at willing the air in front of them since even though you;re stealthed, they will out trade you . In one fight with a great weapon fighter, they used two skills on my dummy, destroyed it, and then proceeded to tank and outdamage me after my stealth ran out. It's starting to make me regret not min maxing for dps cookie cutter exec

In PvE though it makes you feel like a master of deception
At will daggers into stealth gloaming cuts, run to your companion who got the agro, put a dummy up, run behind the mobs, gloaming cut, shadow strike, roll, leave combat without taking damage

Well if you want to play a sab. You have to play like one.. You will never catch me trading blows with any class unless I have the advantage. Which if I start with a handful of daggers and remain stealth way after.. I always get the start. Most other rogues will try to get the advantage with a lashing blade crit but I usually avoid that. Ill post a vid with I the week with my build so people can experience my style.

redxhood · May 2013

Thanks. What do you do about clerics that just outheal your poke, burst, and sustained damage? When I want to capture a point, they can't kill me, but I can't force them off the point to get it captured (they probably have knockbacks) and usually run off to help my team on another point. What's your opinion on Gloaming cut? Also, what about the final Saboteur mastery that gives 30% more armor pen on kill? It seems somewhat ok in pve, but really situational in pvp since it won't have you putting players down en masse and there's other stats like crit and power that you want as well. Also, throwing daggers don't seem to be enough damage even if I unload all 12 into someone and I'm stuck with Gloaming unless I want to use Shadow Strike early, but I save that until my meter is almost out. I have Shadow Strike, Bait and Switch, and Impact Shot (for now), with Lurkers assault as my main daily (bloodbath as my second one. More advice is welcome, and looking forward to that video!

kyeo138 · May 2013

I'm using sab/stealth build now. Only lvl 49, but so far my build is:

Basic
5 0 3 0
0 0 1 0
3 3 0 5

Saboteur
5 0 0 5
5 0 5 0

For skills, mainly in PVP I use:

At Will: Shadow Strike & Sly Flourish
Encounter: Dazing Strike, Shadow Strike, Impossible to Catch (sometimes swap impossible to catch w/Lashing Blade or Deft Strike, depending on who i'm facing)
Daily: Courage Breaker (or sometimes Bloodbath) & Lurker's Assault

I haven't meta-gamed it or totally optimized it, but I like it & it works for me. All my feats benefit my stealthed mode & AP gen. It's quite fun 1v1

Has someone tried a Saboteur Rogue build?

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