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PvP needs two things to be in a better state.
nvmbanelings
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
yes, another PvP thread. yes, i know PvP is more or less tacked on, but that doesn't mean the developers shouldn't try and make it decent, yeah? i've waited until 60 to solidify my thoughts on PvP.
anyway, what PvP needs is two things (imo) to be in a decent state:
1) there needs to be diminishing returns on SAME types of CC.
yes, this is a hot topic and people love to hate on diminishing returns, but the fact of the matter is that they're NEEDED for PvP. however, diminishing returns should only effect CC of the same type.
that means a stun will reduce the next stuns duration; a daze will reduce the next daze's duration, a knock-back reduces the "prone" time of the next knock-back prone, etc.
that's reasonable, yeah?
my second suggestion is one of these two things:
2a) give everyone a flat damage reduction in PVP; high enough that you won't get bursted down in two seconds, but low enough that fights don't take five minutes to finish. include daily powers into this if this happens. i was thinking around a 40% damage reduction.
no, don't add resilience onto PVP gear. that's a ****ty solution. just add a damage reduction to everyone when they enter PvP combat.
or, alternatively:
2b) reduce the damage of ALL daily powers in PVP. i've been hit by 29k by rogues, 16k by CW, 16k by clerics, etc. my gear isn't that good, but i can link videos of clerics in full T2 with defensive setups getting hit for just as much as i am.
one of those two suggestions, but not both (of the second suggestions).
i know these have prolly been posted before, but it doesn't change the fact that they're needed. these solutions are needed for 5v5. i can't imagine how bad 10v10 will be if they don't do something to address PVP that doesn't effect PVE balance, which, neither of my suggestions does.
p.s. remove righteousness.
anyway, what PvP needs is two things (imo) to be in a decent state:
1) there needs to be diminishing returns on SAME types of CC.
yes, this is a hot topic and people love to hate on diminishing returns, but the fact of the matter is that they're NEEDED for PvP. however, diminishing returns should only effect CC of the same type.
that means a stun will reduce the next stuns duration; a daze will reduce the next daze's duration, a knock-back reduces the "prone" time of the next knock-back prone, etc.
that's reasonable, yeah?
my second suggestion is one of these two things:
2a) give everyone a flat damage reduction in PVP; high enough that you won't get bursted down in two seconds, but low enough that fights don't take five minutes to finish. include daily powers into this if this happens. i was thinking around a 40% damage reduction.
no, don't add resilience onto PVP gear. that's a ****ty solution. just add a damage reduction to everyone when they enter PvP combat.
or, alternatively:
2b) reduce the damage of ALL daily powers in PVP. i've been hit by 29k by rogues, 16k by CW, 16k by clerics, etc. my gear isn't that good, but i can link videos of clerics in full T2 with defensive setups getting hit for just as much as i am.
one of those two suggestions, but not both (of the second suggestions).
i know these have prolly been posted before, but it doesn't change the fact that they're needed. these solutions are needed for 5v5. i can't imagine how bad 10v10 will be if they don't do something to address PVP that doesn't effect PVE balance, which, neither of my suggestions does.
p.s. remove righteousness.
Post edited by nvmbanelings on
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Comments
CC does not need DR- timing CC is good team work. If you have skill and good teamwork you use CC well; if you lack those you get killed by a skilled team.
What pvp really needs is 1) afkers/ people just sitting at the keyboard but not playing penalized.
2) new players allowed to join a game when afkers are kicked.
Pretty much that ^ and more arenas , maybe bigger and diffrent objectives rather then only node/beacon/point control. Like capture the flag / free for all/King of the hill / team deathmatch /
WRONG.
CC does need DR's because a coordinated team can indefinatley cc chain an entire team with no dr's. Kinda stupid dont you think? But if cc is what you think skill is than so be it
If your team can indefinately cc chain the ENTIRE enemy team then you have one skilled team and the other noobs SHOULD be destroyed. This cry for DR is the cry of the unskilled player. At any rate I have leveled a toon through pvp in this game and have never seen what you describe happen.
Usually what happens is one dumbarse (usually a GWF for some reason) runs headfirst into a group of 4 or 5 enemies, gets promptly cc'd/ focused to death and then whines about how OP rogues are, or complains that CC sucks.
I'm guessing that you are one of those special players.
LOL!!! Because it takes skill to kill a player that can't fight back, because of endless CC chain right? You obviously have no idea what "skill" is.
+1 for DR on CC.
Usually if the enemy team can chain CC your team indefinitely, the counter-strategy would be to avoid head-on confrontation and split capture points (2 on each node, and 1 guy to stall node rushes). The fact that you can win by split capturing is almost always forgotten because most people are in PvP purely for the thrill of the kill.
Diminishing CC is not a bad idea in pre-mades, but it would mess up randomly matched teams with very few CCs available.
I am pretty sure this is becoming standard play; people are realizing that you only need to stand on a capture location to prevent it from generating Victory Points which means the defender is always at a disadvantage once the person makes it onto the point. Furthermore, since most people aren't in pre-mades the only way to ensure that your own skill matters the most rather than composition (your team has zero clerics and they have two!) and team coordination is to play the whack-a-mole-ninja-capping-stalling game.
On the other hand, if a class is defenceless against CC, then the possibility of fighting a full CC team would be a nightmare. There needs to be a counter to that strategy - a PvP counter, not a node capture counter. Node capture is not PvP; it is the somewhat flimsy spine a lot of MMO producers construct their PvP content on. PvP balance is and should only ever involve actual combat, not the means of avoiding it to win a match.
The biggest problem is that we don't want Neverwinter being screwed up the way Blizzard destroyed WoW by playing with class balance constantly in an attempt to mitigate the damage done by each balancing attempt. Someone is always going to whine about this class or that class being overpowered. My suggestion is this: Set up a ladder system, give the players a full season to fight over the top positions. Then, tier by tier, survey them, from highest to lowest, getting feedback as you go. Find out what players at differing stages of the ladder progression like or dislike, what strategies are successful due to skilled play and which are successful because there's no counters to them. Cycle that information back into the game through your balancing system.
Whatever you do, don't rush it. That was and is Blizzard's mistake, and too many other companies do the same thing as soon as someone starts complaining. Take your time, collect the appropriate information from the players who are actually actively using the system, and act on it.
Regarding the possibility of a flat damage reduction: If this were implemented, I'd suggest it be a flat reduction on all HP-impacting abilities; basically, include healing in the nerf. As that change is, clerics would benefit far too much from its implementation.
AFK people are a real problem, cause they join simply to get experience points for leveling and could care less about PvP or their impact upon their team.
****ing brilliant, if you are scrolling through the post take a moment to read this one because, it is the most level headed, progressive way to fix pvp.
+1 man
I'd also enjoy a PvP tourney matching system where players click an option to join a tourney. Teams are formed based upon level and the value of each players equipment scores so that teams are random and even. Since there are 10 people per team and the tourney is a knock out system where players may eventually quit before its over, the team that wins isn't what is important but rather which 5 players score the most points. After each match the top 5 scorers advance while the bottom 5 are removed, so that if a tourney starts when 20 players are signed up, there will be 2 matches played for the top players... if 40 players initially join, 3 matches would be played for those who end up advancing. A leaders board that resets every week or couple weeks or once a month could then be made where players earn points based upon their wins and advancements.
with a ladder system it is very easy to balance any PvP system without nerfing or changing any class, all you do is have PvP set up so that when in PvP the programmer can adjust each class separately based upon their damage dealt or damage taken, whatever the class problem is, and then make sure the various classes are fairly enough PvP balanced out upon the boards (if every class is being killed in 2 hits at higher levels, then the high level playing environment would simply be adjusted so everyone takes half damage, PvP is always best when programmers can micro-manage the PvP play environment based upon level and uneven class play at their different levels).
so if control wizards are constantly winning at level 10 to 20 but always losing horribly at 30 to 40, then their PvP environment can be set so control wizards receive a penalty to damage dealt when they are levels 10 to 20 but receive a damage reduction bonus if they are level 30 to 40 in PvP... whatever it takes so that they play evenly with the other classes on the boards whatever level everyone tends to be. Total equipment scores should also be watched. It could be that a class is always dominant cause the people playing a class are spending a ton on having insane equipment rating scores, if this is the case then insane equipment score people should be paired against other insanely equipment score players and not regular equipment score players but the insane equipment score players should have their own ratings boards which give out much better rewards to match their level of play.
I said it takes skill to coordinate CC, especially to cc an entire team "indefinately" would take enormous skill and enormous fail from the other team, if even possible at all. Learn to read ****.
The idea of setting up a ladder and then balancing on feedback over the course of some time is a good one. However, the pvp is pretty good as it is now.
Suggestions like "give us DR" are totally subjective. However, there is no doubt that the biggest issue for pvp, and one that needs to be resolved asap, is the afkers and inability to get new players into a game once u kick said afkers.
Once that functionality is in the base of the pvp system will be solid and you can start playing around with ideas like new maps/game modes.
Yeah you can get new players if you kick inactives before the match starts, but it doesn't seem to work while the match is running. I agree that having to join mid-way through a game could be a bummer as well, especially if it happened a lot.
Its just that I have never played an mmo with such an afk issue. Its like the whole culture of the game has degenerated into its fine to afk. Many people are straight up about it during the games, openly joking about how they are afking for various reasons. Then I noticed this trend where people just give up if its 4vs5 or even if things look bad on the score board.
I know many people hate it, and I can understand why, but the leader kick ability has saved so many games for me. I have been able to get many people back into the game by saying I'll kick if they afk- and often we turn around and win.
I don't think the solutions are easy- the issue is probably due to a mix of several factors like the pvp daily, xp, lack of penalty for afkers, inability to get new players once kicked, being able to leave and requeue immediately in another game, etc. Changing any of these factors could also impact the game in other ways that are not desirable.
I agree unbalanced teams can end in 6:50min. however long fought teams have taken over 30.
constant spawning would let people join the fight quicker than they die so all 3 points would jsut be perma contested.
people should be rewarded with CC-chaining with different classes.
if a CW and TR work together to take someone down? gj. they used their cc effectively.
two CW's spamming their cc? that's not good, "skilled" teamwork. that's just facerolling... but you can't do anything since you a) die too fast and b) are cc'd until death because there's no diminishing returns.
cc-chaining should be rewarded, yes, but cc-spamming should be punished. currently, there's no risk and only reward from cc-spamming on the same target. there should be some negative to using cc repeatedly before the first one even faltered.
this problem will become even more obvious when they release 10v10 matches.
Huh? How is having CC from two different classes in ANY way different from two of the same classe coordinating CC? What you say is totally illogical.
In any fight of an equal number of people, the team that coordinates CC and burst better is going to win, that is called skill. Adding in DR just dumbs down the game for skill-less players.
If you are jumping in 1vs2 you should die, if you don't either 1) the enemy is not good, 2) you are overgeared, or 3) you are a GF.
If it is 2vs2, then the one that is not getting focused will be (depending on class) chain-KDing/ daze-oneshotting/ or CCing one enemy mage to death or healing/cleansing. You can't be chained CC'd and focused if one of the enemy is on its <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> getting beaten to death.
Do you have no block, no anti-CC ability, no heals?