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STR vs Dex Discussion.
valeri0wn
Member Posts: 24 Arc User
Hi as I've noticed last few days the topic dex vs str has been pretty wild and while the concensus seems to be that str gives more dmg than dex.
So i decided to roll a TR but your discussion's are confusing me what attributes to roll.
I want to go human, so options are 17 str 15 dex 13 cha, 15 str 17 dex 13 cha, 13 str 20 dex 13 cha. Could use some opinions please. Thanks
Regards
Valerion
So i decided to roll a TR but your discussion's are confusing me what attributes to roll.
I want to go human, so options are 17 str 15 dex 13 cha, 15 str 17 dex 13 cha, 13 str 20 dex 13 cha. Could use some opinions please. Thanks
Regards
Valerion
Post edited by valeri0wn on
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Comments
What kind of build would work with a more STR focused rogue? In like a guide or something.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
Understandable. So if I were to roll my stats what would be most beneficial? Could I still go 17 str 15 dex and still not be totally...pants down in a jail cell?
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
no no. dont confuse dex and crit.
Crit is great.
Another person stated that crit was greater then power. Because he claimed power was a linear flat damage. (which I have not looked into myself yet.)
But sure. crit is a %. and then is scaling with power+weapon damage. While power is ADDING into weapon damage here it seems?(again, have not checked.) GW2 for example power is a % multiplying into your weapon damage.
The issue is dex is not a significant factor for your total crit rate, while str is always a factor.
All those other things,crit severity, overrun crit, etc all hit harder with higher str.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
My understanding is that power adds at the end, and is not multiplied like weapon damage is. But that's just what I've heard from others; haven't confirmed myself. I know that I do tend to out damage Rogues with similar offensive gear-score who emphasize Power instead of Crit.
If critical severity were 100%, you'd get as much DPS from +1% crit rate as you would from +1% damage. The math:
Given a base damage of X, a percent bonus D gives X*(1+D) expected damage.
Add in a critical severity S, a crit rate of C, you get (X*(1+D))*(1+(S*C)) expected damage.
So if S=100%, you get X*(1+D)*(1+C). As you can see, D and C both increase expected damage in exactly the same way.
Now, obviously, base severity is 75% not 100%, but crit does scale with gear in the same way STR bonus to damage does, just a little slower. But, it's not hard to get a 100% or more severity at end-game, especially if you're burning down a boss with Duelist's Strike.
Vorpal enchantment plus Half-orc would get you there all the time. So DEX could, potentially, pull ahead of STR.
Also the comparison of whether having to stack more crit on your gear when stacking strength is more or less valuable than the armor pen / recovery you can stack by taking the extra dexterity needs more attention I feel.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
problem is that you dont get up to +50% dmg like crit does... so it means that crit is devalued as you get real high.
X*(1+D)*(1+C)
doing 100base dmg for easy math (math using previous' post math assuming 100%crit severity)
try the math with 0%dmg and 50%crit : 100*(1+0%)*(1+50%) = 150dmg
then with 50%dmg and 0%crit : 100*(1+50%)*(1+0%) = 150dmg
then with 25%dmg and 25%crit : 100*(1+25%)*(1+25%) = 156.25dmg (4.16% more dmg that other combos)
you will find out that 25%/25% is better.
if you could, you would want to keep %dmg as close to %crit as possible but that isnt possible in this game since %dmg is always low.
So a high str base allows you to get the most of your crits. Now you also have to factor in other stuff related to crits that would lower CDs and stuff like that, but those are pretty minor in comparaison.
x*(1+D)*(1.15+C) , Using 100 base damage....
100*(1+0%)*(1 +(1.15+50%)) = 157.5
100*(1+50%)*(1 +(1.15+0%)) = 150
100*(1+25%)*(1 +(1.15+25%)) = 160.9
Now using numbers actually attainable from different extremes of character rolls (calling 27 the max and 15 the minimum for a primary/secondary stat):
100*(1+5%)*(1 +(1.15+17%)) = 125.5
100*(1+17%)*(1 +(1.15+5%)) = 123.7
100*(1+11%)*(1 +(1.15+11%)) = 125.0
Taking crit severity to the maximum we can currently obtain (using all self buffs that I am aware of, and greater vorpal):
100*(1+0%)*(1 +(1.62+50%)) = 181
100*(1+50%)*(1 +(1.62+0%)) = 150
100*(1+25%)*(1 +(1.62+25%)) = 175.625
In all cases, except the extreme case, having the strength buff is better. The case of having 0% crit is a moot point though since you will always have some crit in reality.
So I think it's more complicated than just saying to take an even split. Assuming you can obtain enough crit severity, crit chance starts to become more valuable than bonus damage. So dexterity doesn't devalue crit, it increases the value of crit, assuming you have good levels of crit severity.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
I think you're right overall, but I don't understand these numbers.
100 * (1.15 + .5) = 165, not 172.5
And that's not the right equation; the correct equations would be:
100 * (1 + 0%) * (1 + (1.15 * 50%)) = 157.5
and
100 * (1 + 25%) * (1 + (1.15 * 25%)) = 160.94
Fixing the math actually showed crit to be more valuable than strength 1:1 at high crit severity. Or at least by a large margin at high severity.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
+%dmg has only str for source, crit can come from multiple places, feats, stats, procs, etc..
most rogues will end up in the 40-50% crit range
so for this lets assume 2 possible stat roll for both str/dex using HO race
20dex and 15str
or
18dex and 18str
these are the 2 possible extreme stat roll for a rogue.
adding +1 every 10levels get you
26dex / 21str (16% crit, 11%dmg)
and
24dex / 24str (14%crit, 14%dmg)
also gonna give crit the best scenario possible of being in stealth, with vorpal with deadly momentum and being HO = 25%+25%+15%+5% = 70% +base75% = 145%
adding a base crit of about 30% (depends on gear, but should be in the ball park)
basedmg*(1+dmgbonus%)*(1+crit%*severity%)
scenario 1 : 100*(1+11%)*(1+46%*145%)=185.037
scenario 2 : 100*(1+14%)*(1+44%*145%)=186.732
this shows the highest possible str roll for rogue is in advantage with really high crit severity by 0.916%
lets see without super high crit %, but rather a base 80% for being HO
scenario 1 : 100*(1+11%)*(1+46%*80%)=151.848
scenario 2 : 100*(1+14%)*(1+44%*80%)=154.128
Str still ahead by about 1.5015%
doing the same math with 165%crit severity and 40%crit base instead gives
scenario 1 = 213.564
scenario 2 = 215.574
str still being ahead even then
I tried Half Orc and couldnt pass the Face customization screen...
I also tried to rationalize it as -2 dex should be remedied with +crit gear, whereas str's power isnt as easy
This would only matter during character creation, and the difference is going to be pretty small either way.
Such a shame that the primary stat is being overlooked. I believe I read similar for Clerics that wisdom is primary, but Int and Cha are still preferred.
I started with 12 cha so wondering if its worth putting points into it.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
And what would be the optimal starting stats?
I couldn't stand the idea of being halforc, so I stick with Human for this.
Last char, up to lvl 18 so far i went 17 Str, 15 Dex, 12 Cha I believe. at 10 i put 1 stat into str and still holding the 2nd one. Not sure if dex or cha would be better.
So my question is - is there any purpose to make a maxed dex/char rogue? Or must all melee chars be str based (as it seems now).
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.