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does no one go for an oppressor build?
igglypiggly
Member Posts: 42
like the title says. i see a lot of renegade and thematurge but no one seems to consider the oppressor tree. am i the only one going that route? is there something im missing that everyone else sees thats gonna bite me in the tush later on?
Post edited by igglypiggly on
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Chill is kinda meh as a CC because it's hard to Freeze multiple targets, and the duration doesn't last long. If the stacks built up faster and Freeze lasted longer, I might consider using AoE Freezing. Icy Terrain plus Tab Conduit of Ice combo doesn't look appealing when you can just straight up dps burst mobs with Tab Chill Strike.
There's only like 2 feats in that tree that look promising.
The extra chill procs on Ice Laz0r
It makes me sad really because I'm trying to make an actual "Controller" CW build. And I usually love frost style CC classes, the way chill function is just, clunky though.
I think people overlook a lot of the benefits in the tree because it's not quite as straightforward as the others, and the excuse that you can't CC the boss is well - why the hell are you on the boss?
I think it shines more in PvP then Dungeons personally, but I enjoy it with both. I don't think the playstyle is for everyone, especially since most CW's just wanna maximize damage which is fun, but not the only viable way to play.
What happened that in every game and MMO there is all the debuff styled spells are always Ice ones, why not get creative? I really like the idea of CC, but I dislike Ice spells.....
Exactly.
As I was googling I found this http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19626922/Making_the_control_wizard_in_4e
His description fits more with my description of the CW: Go for Wisdom first because there are no items in the game that will give you a control bonus, go for the bonus control passive etc.
Furthermore, we also get a feat that allows the ice damage spells to deal 20% more damage to targets who are not affected by chill, which gives a little "oomph" when it's time to dps the boss (something that you should not do quite often, given that there's an aspect of the the boss difficulty based around how a group handles the adds).
But more on this when she is 60 and I can compare my two wizards more directly.
If I get the chance (and I see some other things), I might level a human Oppressor full Wisdom and Int with 14 Charisma (12 start +2 from leveling). I want to see if I can emphasize controlling with damage as a byproduct of it.
One thing I wondered is if anyone had a take on severe reaction; I am expecting this to work like repel but only for 5 feet, however it's hard to notice the knock back in pvp (although the stam regen is good).
As far as PvE my Oppressor build seems to be good. Though, I am not sure the feats I have are worth the loss in DMG. I focus on heavy control and helping the party out, but I might not notice a big difference in control as opposed to the DPS boost from Renegade. I can't really compare it since I have only tried Oppressor but I can explain how I am doing.
Right now I am about at 7200 GS and I generally run with an 8200 GS GWF for Dungeons. I generally come in the top 2 IF there are no rogues. Me and the GWF's DPS seems to bounce around, one of us will pass the other at times, about the same. I do AoE builds so if I am just burning the boss and there are no adds or something my DMG will start to drop. I pick up on DMG when there are a lot of mobs while the rest of the group generally focuses on the elites.
Current Build: Ice Storm*(1) and Singularity(2). Magic Missile(Left) and Frost Ray(Right) at-will. Slow Time*(Tab), Sudden Storm(Q), Shield(E), Enfeeble (R) for Encounters. AoE DMG and Control Effect Duration 15% passives.
My main focus is grabbing everything into Singularity to help the group while doing Sudden Storm and Slow Time when they gather up for maximum AoE dmg and slow/chill effets. I never beat rogues in dps but usually have the top 3 slots even as a heavy control. Slow Time is one I am still trying to test, I am not sure what to think about it, the speed boost is a little jarring in tab at least. Sudden Storm does good dmg and I have a feat that adds chill effects. Shield is for mitigation and emergencies. Enfeeble is of course always put on the strongest target for increased dmg. Magic Missile is for bosses that are immune to frost, and Frost Ray on anything that can be frozen to help the group.
Heavy AoE build (for trash packs if applicable): Singularity, ChillTab, Sudden, Shield, Avalanche(When I was 50 and first got Avalanche, putting it on Tab and throwing it around was the most **** fun I have had in this game, unfortunately it works better and faster unTabbed).
I go back and forth with abilities depending on the situation and am still looking for the best set-up, but I don't regret Oppressor. It could use a buff though.
Foundry Map: Blacklake District
Type: Campaign, Story, Dungeon - 5 bosses, 1-2 players
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Currently, as the encounters are built no tree option offers enough CC that a single CW could be able to handle all the waves of adds on bosses and other encounters.
Add to that the fact that many encounters have timed spawns or constant spawning, thus a time frame window that you have to kill a set of adds before a new set comes.
what that scenario causes is that the base control of CW is enough to take adds out of the cleric and hold things somewhat under control or close enough for the team to deal with them.
The Oppressor tree is insignificant in terms of what it provides since you won't get enough of it to actually be able to control stuff on your own and also lacks the damage to output close to the other options present.
Even for PVP, the CW already has the necessary basic tools and, at least as personal taste, I think it heavily benefits from the burst gained from other trees than the mild increase in CC from "Oppressor".
It's sad, though...that the control tree of a control class is the least useful. But then, gotta remember the Spellstorm Paragon is a more damage-dealing oriented one.
Just an addendum: In the classic pen paper D&D 4e the Wizard was by far the worst Controller in the game. Psions, for example, could control more targets and deal heavier debuffs. I guess they remained true to the corebooks, eh...
Because honestly, depending on your set up, it's either on part or better than Renegade in terms of burst damage in PvP depending on time frame/parameters. Plus, it's less crit fishing. Thaumaturgy beats it but you're always stuck with CoI in order to achieve that. So, less flexibility.
Though for PvE, if I recall correctly that icy terrain procs both weapon and tenebrous? If so, then you're perfectly fine running around with Oppressor and relying on icy terrain to do all the work for you. High recovery, high power, and up to 20% armor pen - you'll be able to compete when it comes to adds. You'll probably have an easier time too depending on the fight. Though when it comes to single target DPS on a boss it'll be very lackluster... almost depressingly so.
I run with ACT, yes.
Oppressor is simply dull, number-wise and mechanic-wise. Ofc that's imo.
At least I couldn't reproduce close to the burst from Renegade or Thau with Oppressor. I'm open to suggestions though, since I can always be proven wrong.
I'll be sincere and say I didn't test if tenebrous is still proccing from icy terrain, but I thought they fixed the proccing when they also dwelled with the different ranks proccing and such.
I'll take your position and assume for now it DOES proc, to get the better example for it. Steal Time also can proc tenebrous, the damage is higher, the area is wider, it slow mobs allowing breathing room to your cleric, buffs you and all that not accounting it STUNS.
Not even bother discussing the fact to actually use it as you suggest most optimal would be to TAB Icy Terrain which implies removing Chill Strike from TAB which I find very hard to justify, damage wise.
Armor pen - people always talk about this as if it was a tremendous gain in damage and even don't stop to think what it does. Arpen reduces the passive mitigation of the target you're attacking.
That means a target with 25% passive damage reduction, when attacked by you with 20%arpen, would be at 20% mitigation. So that means what you really gained in damage was only 5%. because that's the target new passive mitigation after the arpen reduction.
Sincerely, a tree that already deals subpar damage, using a stat that won't really benefit it much, that does not provide a substantial gain based on the loss...again, why would you use it? Besides ofc for the "fluffy" of being an oppressor...
Are you sure Armor Pen is a percentage of a percentage because I think in the GF discussion they said it was flat. Which means someone running 20% armor pen would reduce someone with 25% mitigation to 5%... that's 20% damage increase. However, it probably can't reduce below 0.
Keep in mind that Steal Time is also on a 14s cool down on most builds even 15s on some. Icy Terrain can be reduced down to what... 5s depending on if there is an internal cool down for the feat and if so, it'll be stuck at 8 seconds or so. You wouldn't put Terrain on tab and would leave either Chill Strike, Steal Time , Conduit of Ice, or even Entangling Force (sounds weird but it has its uses in generating fast stacks). Furthermore, you want to be as close to your targets as you can be since you'll most likely be using Reaper's Touch in conjunction with the feat that boosts your At-Wills by 10% after using a control ability.
If you're going to be at near point blank you might since you're using steal time, you might as well lay down icy terrain. With procs from Steal Time and from Icy Terrain + Chill Strike or whatever other AoE combinations you have you ought to be killing mobs pretty quickly which means... more Icy Terrain allowing your Cleric to have an easier time kiting.
But that's all PvE anyways and I doubt it'll beat a Thaumaturgy build as funny as it seems.
Here's where I really want you to test which is something along the lines of Ray of Enfeeblement x2, Chill Strike, Ice Ray x2, Ice Knife running with Chilling Presence and all cold damage related feats based off of chill (also Eye of the Storm since nothing else beats that... such a stupid passive). You should be able to outburst or match most Renegade builds without having to fish for crits. It should be pretty **** competitive if not better than anything Renegade can pull off in a similar time frame.