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Settling the dispute: Disciple of Strength
kittenkawa11
Member Posts: 8 Arc User
The Issue
Hello, I've noticed alot of people talking about disciple of strength and throwing numbers around, and I figured it was about time I did some solid testing and got to the bottom of what exactly it does.
The Theory
Disciple of Strength: Increase the amount of bonus damage strength gives you by 2/4/6%.
So, since there seems to be (have been) some confusion about the way this feat functions, I will say that every other class that has a feat related to this has a pure increase by those values. for example, the Cleric has the feat Greater Fortune, which increases their healing from wisdom by 1/2/3%. This increase is reflected directly on the character sheet, (E.G. if the cleric has a wisdom of 16 and 3 points in this feat, their healing from wisdom will report 9% additional healing, while additional damage from wisdom will report 6% as normal). This being said, the gains from this feat are not reflected appropriately on the rogues character sheet and has lead to some really funky theory crafting.
Minus any amount of critical thinking, math doesn't justify anything. Objectively, with the way the feat is worded (just as any other are) this presumes to give you a flat 2/4/6% increase in bonus damage from strength.
The Test
By the time this question arose for me, I had already placed 2 points into Discipline of Strength, but not 3 (level 27 or so). Once I hit 28, however I was able to put a 3rd in, but did not do so. I went to the test dummy and begin recording single non-critical hits with sly flourish (with 2/3 in Discipline of Strength). After I had recorded 200 hits, I put the final point into Discipline of strength, and continued to record 200 hits after the change (now 3/3 Discipline of Strength).
The Results
The average damage I recorded with 2/3 points into the Discipline of Strength was 372.83.
If the gains from Discipline of strength were multiplicative as many assume, then with my measly 17 strength, the 3rd point into the feat should render me at ~373.35 average damage.
However, the average damage I recorded with 3/3 points into discipline of strength was 380.52. This is 2.06% increase in damage, Which confirms that Discipline of strength is Additional %damage, not multiplicative as some would suspect. However, I will say, that this being the case, the tool tip on the character sheet does appear to be bugged and is not reporting the gain appropriately.
I'm not trying to call anyone out, or be mean, of course, and for as far as the debate between charisma for combat advantage vs strength for raw damage, I believe these findings drive that more towards charisma, but I personally feel both charisma and strength are important, and regardless of what the math says, both play styles are substantially different, and you should ultimately pick whatever you enjoy most!
Hello, I've noticed alot of people talking about disciple of strength and throwing numbers around, and I figured it was about time I did some solid testing and got to the bottom of what exactly it does.
The Theory
Disciple of Strength: Increase the amount of bonus damage strength gives you by 2/4/6%.
So, since there seems to be (have been) some confusion about the way this feat functions, I will say that every other class that has a feat related to this has a pure increase by those values. for example, the Cleric has the feat Greater Fortune, which increases their healing from wisdom by 1/2/3%. This increase is reflected directly on the character sheet, (E.G. if the cleric has a wisdom of 16 and 3 points in this feat, their healing from wisdom will report 9% additional healing, while additional damage from wisdom will report 6% as normal). This being said, the gains from this feat are not reflected appropriately on the rogues character sheet and has lead to some really funky theory crafting.
Minus any amount of critical thinking, math doesn't justify anything. Objectively, with the way the feat is worded (just as any other are) this presumes to give you a flat 2/4/6% increase in bonus damage from strength.
The Test
By the time this question arose for me, I had already placed 2 points into Discipline of Strength, but not 3 (level 27 or so). Once I hit 28, however I was able to put a 3rd in, but did not do so. I went to the test dummy and begin recording single non-critical hits with sly flourish (with 2/3 in Discipline of Strength). After I had recorded 200 hits, I put the final point into Discipline of strength, and continued to record 200 hits after the change (now 3/3 Discipline of Strength).
The Results
The average damage I recorded with 2/3 points into the Discipline of Strength was 372.83.
If the gains from Discipline of strength were multiplicative as many assume, then with my measly 17 strength, the 3rd point into the feat should render me at ~373.35 average damage.
However, the average damage I recorded with 3/3 points into discipline of strength was 380.52. This is 2.06% increase in damage, Which confirms that Discipline of strength is Additional %damage, not multiplicative as some would suspect. However, I will say, that this being the case, the tool tip on the character sheet does appear to be bugged and is not reporting the gain appropriately.
I'm not trying to call anyone out, or be mean, of course, and for as far as the debate between charisma for combat advantage vs strength for raw damage, I believe these findings drive that more towards charisma, but I personally feel both charisma and strength are important, and regardless of what the math says, both play styles are substantially different, and you should ultimately pick whatever you enjoy most!
Post edited by kittenkawa11 on
0
Comments
Interesting! I was using a smaller sample size, and tooltip.
with sly flourish were you using all 3 hits, or just hit 1, to maintain normalcy?
I do see a small error in your math.
you said, 380.52 is a 2.06% increase in damage over 372.83. which it is.
The problem.
unless you are suggesting each point in the feat is separate. it shouldn't be. it should be lower then 2% still. the fact that you got such a higher return, does suggest you are correct though.
17 str gives +7%
2/3 gives +4%.
Two options then.
base damage +11%=372.83
or base damage +7.28%=372.83
that 2% feat should be increasing your base damage by 2%, not the base damage +11%.
372.83/1.11= 335.9 base. 2% of that is 6.7, a 1.8% increase over 372.83, and 379.53 expected. granted as noted, this is much closer to your results then the alternative, which would be.
372.83/1.0728=347.53 base. .14% increase for .49, or 373.31.
the question is also relevant as to if str bonus is really as listed, or if the base 10 str has any effect as well.
if 17 str is really +17% and not +7% for example, then that would radically change how the feat works.
I think this needs to be tested as 60, so we have less fractions, and have much more noticeable numbers.
I was doing this in single strikes to maintain normalcy, and i also have about a 30% critical strike rate, and I was not including critical strikes for the intents of this testing.
I do see what you're saying, and you're correct. I also agree with you that this would probably be a more precise test at 60, but I wanted to conduct it before I got to 60 so I could avoid spending an exorbitant quantity of Astral Diamonds to respec. It also may be superior if I had started with 0 points in the feat, and then conducted with only 1 point in the feat (or 6 points, as long as i understand what my expected gain should be). thank you very much for pointing out that flaw though!
Edit: I'd also like to note, that though I don't believe that it's appropriate that each point in the feat is seperate. I believe showing these results it is very possible that is the way it was programmed, though aside from this test I don't feel there is any evidence to support that, so it's hard to say for sure! We are still in beta after all!
NW-DJ56XFK6G
My first installment in the Rise of Shadovar Campaign.
Does this mean we can sort of forget about prioritizing strength over charisma since every point of it is still just 1%, while with feats, charisma is 1.20%? Though I guess we should test that feat out as well lol.
Omfg
10chars
or base damage +7.28%=372.83"
This, and so much other factors like enemy defense, etc may make calculating it straight out difficult.
Lets say you do 500 damage, but in reality do 1000. So if enemy defense was flat it would mean he reduce 500 damage.
From 2/3 to 3/3 feat you yield 510. Whoo! 2% increase therefore additive. HOWEVER this means that your real damage is 1010 (510 + 500). 1010 is only 1% damage higher than 1000 rather than 2%. There are so many other factors like armor pen, whether it's flat values or not, etc that will make calculating it nearly impossible unless you have the numbers behind it.
tool tip.
20 str.
sly flourish without 3/3
566-661 list. 613.5 ave
This SHOULD mean I get 10% from str. and then my base sly is 514.5-601
20 str
sly flourish WITH 3/3
603-704 list. 653.5 ave
Now. this is 6.5% increase over 566-661, and 17.1% increase over 514.5-601
If tooltips are correct, then 3/3 is adding 7% to your str bonus.
Testing. kept my sample size low again. 50 per.
601.9 average without. (613.5 expected via tooltip.) dummys have 2% mit probably?
639.86 average with. 6.23% difference. (653.5 expected via tooltip)
So yeah. 6-7% added.
20str and 3/3
its as if I have 27str, or 17% damage bonus.
First of all, sorry to bump this old thread but this is the first result that comes up with google when searching "Neverwinter disciple of strength" and I can't yet make a new thread(nor do I want to)(too few posts or something)
I redid kittenkawa11's test, just to see if it has been changed or if he lied to all of us. And for SCIENCE
Here are the facts:
0 Disciple of Strength(DoS)
200 hits. Just normal first hit of Duelist's Flurry
Average dmg: 242,995
1 DoS (2% bonus strength damage)
200 hits. Same as before
Average dmg: 248,855
That is 1,024 times more than without DoS. In other words, it does give you 2% dmg boost.
To put it simply, 1DoS = +2% damage
I'm going to re-roll my race soon so I need to know for sure. This feat will determine what race I will be re-roll into. If this feat really increases a flat 6% bonus damage, I'll re-roll into a human. If not, Half-Orc it is and skip this feat.
Please confirm or give me feedback based on your own experience with the feat.
Thank you!
I did that a couple of times, but the ICS runthrough I got a 45% crit rate and the DoS runthrough I got 57% crit rate so that right there throws it off usefulness, heh. I guess maybe run my rotation for 5 minutes on a timer to try to even out RNG. In what I did DoS did do higher damage, about 8.5% more, but it's difficult to say whether that was an effect of the feat or the variance in crit, given that I'm a MI Executioner running Greater Vorpal... :P
Anyone has ideas, throw them at me.