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Rogues' backstab
darkhands
Member Posts: 20 Arc User
So, based on feedback and personal experimentation, I've come to a little puzzling realization:
Where in seven hells is the rogue's backstab?
I mean, to be honest, yes, rogues should hit that hard. Even harder, in any DnD edition, having a sneak attack is a HUGE boost to damage, something that may take their d4+1 to a d4+10d6+1 so the damage disparity here could be a little higher than it actually is, but on the other hand, rogues shouldn't deal that much damage while standing toe-to-toe with someone and have their none-sneak-attack damage severely reduced.
Right now, I believe they get something like a 10-25% bonus depending on stat/feat but it should be at least somewhere in the 100%-300%.
Now, before the subject-matter here becomes a train wreck of DPS balance issues with rogues, to which there are many other outlets for your raging comments on this forum, please attempt to focus your attention to Backstabbing as a mechanic, how rewarding it should be and how viable rogues should be without or if you think backstabbing as a whole does not belong to this game.
Your thoughts?
Inspiration: http://spoonyexperiment.com/2012/09/12/counter-monkey-dont-be-that-guy/
Where in seven hells is the rogue's backstab?
I mean, to be honest, yes, rogues should hit that hard. Even harder, in any DnD edition, having a sneak attack is a HUGE boost to damage, something that may take their d4+1 to a d4+10d6+1 so the damage disparity here could be a little higher than it actually is, but on the other hand, rogues shouldn't deal that much damage while standing toe-to-toe with someone and have their none-sneak-attack damage severely reduced.
Right now, I believe they get something like a 10-25% bonus depending on stat/feat but it should be at least somewhere in the 100%-300%.
Now, before the subject-matter here becomes a train wreck of DPS balance issues with rogues, to which there are many other outlets for your raging comments on this forum, please attempt to focus your attention to Backstabbing as a mechanic, how rewarding it should be and how viable rogues should be without or if you think backstabbing as a whole does not belong to this game.
Your thoughts?
Inspiration: http://spoonyexperiment.com/2012/09/12/counter-monkey-dont-be-that-guy/
Post edited by darkhands on
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Comments
[DPS conversation minus rage]
In PvE, it would be such high burst damage that it would go from difficult to impossible to keep aggro off of them, and they would likely go squish very shortly afterward. If they did survive, it would completely trivialize bosses.
In PvP, that much extra burst damage would result in even more people than we currently have complaining about being 1-shot by rogues.
[/DPS conversation minus rage]
Like I said, it's a good idea, but they would have to lower their base damage a bit to justify that much of a boost in damage.
I have a Halfling Rogue and I can't use the sneak attack move like I saw on videos (char disappears in the shadow and attack the target). The ability is only there in my action bar, even automatic, I can't use this.
Am I doing something wrong?
"Sneak Attack" as a class feature in this game is just a speed buff when you're in Stealth (if you looked at the skill description). What you're talking about is Stealth, which you get unlocked on the TAB key at level 10 (if you looked at the skill tree).
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Cloud of steel, should not be limited to 12 shots and should not have recharge, it should be as ranged attack, damage is ok.
Other then that Rogue is OK.
I play cleric for now, and it does as well as Rogue, I am yet to test other classes.
What else I want to see moded?, is more stamina for dodging, at least 2x more.
So, in order of appearance:
No, I do not want to close in the gap on PnP DnD per se. That being said, every rogues in every games can backstab or sneak-attack in some way. It's iconic to the class and missing it makes the class blander in my opinion. Not to mention they do not require any setup and it somewhat lowers the skill ceiling.
Do not worry, that's not so much DPS balance speech because you did not compared it to something else while complaining it was unfair. If the game rewards rogues with higher DPS up to the point the threat is unbearable, it is a legitimate party dynamic concern.
That being said, I do not perceive it as much as a problem because you could circumvent it using threat dumping encounter powers and the like. After all, if you can hit so hard from the back and not so hard from the front, you are going to try to be a team player and stay in the back. And as for PVP, you could counter the play by focusing on the rogue and not showing him your back.
Then again, I could see a concern as to rogues suddenly feeling weaker in PVE, especially without party. A scaled buff all around would be pretty hard to balance unless it's negligeable and that's no fun.
That being said, this is the 4th edition rule on sneak attack.[Emphasis added]
Sneak Attack
Once per turn, when you have combat advantage against an enemy and are using a weapon from the light blade, the crossbow, or the sling weapon group, an attack you make against that enemy deals extra damage if the attack hits. You decide whether to apply the extra damage after making the damage roll. As you advance in level, your extra damage increases.
Sneak Attack Damage
Level 1-10 2d6
Level 11-20 3d6
Level 21-30 5d6
Then again, "Sly Flourish" is pretty much a frontal attack as can be deduced by the description and the charisma damage modifier:
A distracting flourish causes the enemy to forget the blade at his throat.
So... maybe something akin to a "backstab" at will power (and encounter powers?) that would deal less damage than Sly flourish from the front, but more than sly flourish from the back would better suit the current gameplay and grand more options of mastery and a higher skill ceiling for the class? Or at least a different gameplay approach.
In the end you do much more with the new system.
As fun as that one opening hit was, if it missed, that's it for that whole encounter. Some stuff had no "back" to stab.
At least the opening hit of an engagement should have a special animation.
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The Sneak Attack ability in NW was similar originally, it gave extra damage when you were in Stealth. But it got hit with the nerfbat to provide a movement speed bonus instead.
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So while the mechanic of being behind always causes backstab damage is gone there is still an advantage to being behind that increases both your damage and your allies damage by standing either side of a mob.