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Wall of Text - My Thoughts
grayho
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
So I am a 60 GF, 8600 GS - have not spent ANY money on this game (and won't)
This is by no means meant to be a 'flaming' thread, I am just sharing my thoughts on what I believe is the most important thing that need to be changed
Classes.
Not only are classes the MOST IMPORTANT part of ANY game, but if done correctly it can entirely mitigate MOST other complaints <removed>
Here's why;
If classes are done VERY well, than each one will have their own NECESSARY advantage for a group, thus each player will feel a part of 'the team' - regardless of what mount or what enchant they have.
For example, in PvE I hold my own pretty well (by no means am I an amazing player or anything - I do 200 damage lol - but I like to think I'm not a bad tank, I have 45% damage mitigation, 25% deflection chance. And I have not spent a dime)
For PvP, today I just fought a rouge on a point who had the burning enchantment - of course I didn't win the battle, but I held that point for at least a minute and a half, at which point I died, but 2 of my teammates came and ended up killing him - which is a 'win' in my opinion.
For a more in-depth example,
To start the game, I basically ignored all Zen/AD stuff (except for daily dungeons and Invoking) until I got to 60 - at which point I bought a cheap weapon and armor from the store with the AD I 'farmed'. Then I farmed the T1 Cloak Tower for Unicorn seals, got a few necessary items (like the armor).
Basically with all the blues and purples that I had gotten from farming Unicorn seals (from T1 Epics and the Dungeon Delve events) I sold them on the AH for pretty cheap - 3k or 5k AD, and they often sold quickly.
Now I just finished farming PVP for that gear.
At this point I'm at 8,600 GS, and thats when I did my first T2 dungeon.
It was the frozen one with the boss Himrir or w.e his name is.
The random team I had were able to kill the first two bosses, but not the last boss.
Himrir had a HECK of a lot of adds - of which all spawned randomly around the map.
When most people 'complain' about GF (strictly speaking for GF right now) - its always about threat.
While I completely agree that the treat system is not great - there are also other issues.
For example, when I think of a "Guardian Fighter" I think TANK - i.e tons of HP, lots of threat and basically a brick wall that protects the team from most (if not all) damage.
All of my typical 'thoughts' about a "Guardian Fighter" are unmet.
As of right now, it is VERY difficult to hold threat, not only that but I have a paltry 31k hp, 45% damage mitigation, 25% deflection chance - and yet I lose threat, guard meter, and hp pretty quickly. Not only that, but as stated previously, I do almost NO damage!
I think GF's should get a huge increase in health - up in the 80k range - and tons of threat, and an increase in guard meter. to the point where I can use enforced threat to pull an entire pack on me for atleast 60 seconds.
You may say "but that makes trash mobs really easy!"
- they are exactly that, trash mobs. They SHOULD be really easy!
The bosses - the way they are (aka hard) should stay that way
Now it does not end there.
We all know that there are huge complains about Trickster Rouges, or Control Wizards, and how Great Weapons Fighters 'suck'
I completely agree with these statements.
HOWEVER - unlike most people who are saying "nerf the rouges!" I think differently - I think EVERY CLASS needs to be changed in some way.
As stated previously, the Guardian Fighter needs to have WAYY more HP, threat, etc.
The Rouge SHOULD do LOTS of damage - but ought to be more a lot more squishy
As of right now they have almost ALL bonuses; too much damage, too much health, too much controlling powers, too much speed/dodge etc.
Give them a negative side - which IMO should be less health - make them die pretty quickly, so that they NEED to use those controlling powers and speed/sneaky abilities (as a TRICKSTER would need) to kill!
If anyone is actually reading all of this, you may notice that I'm going off the idea that the class names REFLECT their abilities, the Guardian is a freaking guardian who protects his/her entire team..the Trickster uses lots of..well tricks..
Thus, the Great Weapons Fighter should act as if he uses a great weapon - aka lots of AOE damage - maybe more skills/feats that focus on 'secondary target damage'?
Or perhaps just a straight increase in their power against these secondary targets.
Control wizard is an interesting one for me - for I believe they NEED to have controlling powers - which they do. But in PvP if there are two of them you are basically in the air or pushed around a heck of a lot - often leading to an instant death. However I think if the other changes were implemented this would be fine.
As for the Devoted Cleric - I think they are fine as they are. I mean in PvP they can be the necessary component of a team - but thats how they SHOULD be, take out the cleric first to win makes perfect sense to me!
If all these changes were implemented - I (someone who does not want to pay for this game) would be more likely able to do 'true endgame' dungeons, and I'd probably have more fun at PvP as one of the more "useless" classes (useless the way it is at the moment, that is!)
To clarify my statement from before (how the changes to the classes could potentially help most other complaints)
I'll just state some complains I've noticed, and briefly touch on why this would help.
- Rouges/CW too OP - self explanatory
- Too long dungeon queues - if all classes are useful, there would be more diversity and thus more people sticking with their classes (as opposed to giving up on GWF and going rouge - for example) and thus get to 60 to participate in those end game dungeons
<removed>
If the changes above are implemented - I believe that one could do the Endgame dungeons (albeit with some/lots of difficulty) without paying for these things. At that point, things like greater weapon/armor enchantments would be simply for those 'elite gamers' who want to min/max - but the large majority of the playerbase would have no NEED to spend money to win! Further, it would make those who HAVE spent money feel a sense of 'accomplishment' - for I imagine someone with a greater fire enchantment (who can do lots of damage) would be desired. Of course the prices would need to be altered.
I think the general consensus is that more people would pay for things if they were cheaper - hell I know I would be more tempted to drop 5 or 10 bucks for a 'pretty cool mount that does nothing really that beneficial' than 40 freaking dollars for one...
Well if you read this massive wall...I both salute you and thank you for taking the time - please let me know what you think are the biggest issues and - if at all possible your ways in which these issues could be resolved.
I think if many people provided insight/interest in player-driven changes, Perfect World/Cryptic could actually listen and change these issues that many people are having.
I COMPLETELY understand the need to make money - but take this example;
If you price your product (for example, clothing) at 100$, yes of course you will get people who will buy it - thus you may make a pretty nice profit from the offset - but in the long run no1 new will WANT bread cause it costs too **** much! Especially when there are other bakeries that offer bread at 5$ a loaf...
That being said, if things were competitively priced, people will not only want to pay "a little here, a little there", but they will do this MORE and for LONGER!
"Hey guys, you can buy a character slot for 20$!" -Uh..no thanks
vs
"Hey guys, you can buy a character slot for 1$!" -Well I wanted to try that new class, but didnt want to get rid of my godly [two other characters], so why not. And hell, while I'm at it maybe I'll spend 4$ on start-up gear for him/her."
More people (I believe) will do the second option.
Anyways yeah...massive wall...sorry, thanks for reading/ignoring haha.
Cheers, hope to see you in-game!
This is by no means meant to be a 'flaming' thread, I am just sharing my thoughts on what I believe is the most important thing that need to be changed
Classes.
Not only are classes the MOST IMPORTANT part of ANY game, but if done correctly it can entirely mitigate MOST other complaints <removed>
Here's why;
If classes are done VERY well, than each one will have their own NECESSARY advantage for a group, thus each player will feel a part of 'the team' - regardless of what mount or what enchant they have.
For example, in PvE I hold my own pretty well (by no means am I an amazing player or anything - I do 200 damage lol - but I like to think I'm not a bad tank, I have 45% damage mitigation, 25% deflection chance. And I have not spent a dime)
For PvP, today I just fought a rouge on a point who had the burning enchantment - of course I didn't win the battle, but I held that point for at least a minute and a half, at which point I died, but 2 of my teammates came and ended up killing him - which is a 'win' in my opinion.
For a more in-depth example,
To start the game, I basically ignored all Zen/AD stuff (except for daily dungeons and Invoking) until I got to 60 - at which point I bought a cheap weapon and armor from the store with the AD I 'farmed'. Then I farmed the T1 Cloak Tower for Unicorn seals, got a few necessary items (like the armor).
Basically with all the blues and purples that I had gotten from farming Unicorn seals (from T1 Epics and the Dungeon Delve events) I sold them on the AH for pretty cheap - 3k or 5k AD, and they often sold quickly.
Now I just finished farming PVP for that gear.
At this point I'm at 8,600 GS, and thats when I did my first T2 dungeon.
It was the frozen one with the boss Himrir or w.e his name is.
The random team I had were able to kill the first two bosses, but not the last boss.
Himrir had a HECK of a lot of adds - of which all spawned randomly around the map.
When most people 'complain' about GF (strictly speaking for GF right now) - its always about threat.
While I completely agree that the treat system is not great - there are also other issues.
For example, when I think of a "Guardian Fighter" I think TANK - i.e tons of HP, lots of threat and basically a brick wall that protects the team from most (if not all) damage.
All of my typical 'thoughts' about a "Guardian Fighter" are unmet.
As of right now, it is VERY difficult to hold threat, not only that but I have a paltry 31k hp, 45% damage mitigation, 25% deflection chance - and yet I lose threat, guard meter, and hp pretty quickly. Not only that, but as stated previously, I do almost NO damage!
I think GF's should get a huge increase in health - up in the 80k range - and tons of threat, and an increase in guard meter. to the point where I can use enforced threat to pull an entire pack on me for atleast 60 seconds.
You may say "but that makes trash mobs really easy!"
- they are exactly that, trash mobs. They SHOULD be really easy!
The bosses - the way they are (aka hard) should stay that way
Now it does not end there.
We all know that there are huge complains about Trickster Rouges, or Control Wizards, and how Great Weapons Fighters 'suck'
I completely agree with these statements.
HOWEVER - unlike most people who are saying "nerf the rouges!" I think differently - I think EVERY CLASS needs to be changed in some way.
As stated previously, the Guardian Fighter needs to have WAYY more HP, threat, etc.
The Rouge SHOULD do LOTS of damage - but ought to be more a lot more squishy
As of right now they have almost ALL bonuses; too much damage, too much health, too much controlling powers, too much speed/dodge etc.
Give them a negative side - which IMO should be less health - make them die pretty quickly, so that they NEED to use those controlling powers and speed/sneaky abilities (as a TRICKSTER would need) to kill!
If anyone is actually reading all of this, you may notice that I'm going off the idea that the class names REFLECT their abilities, the Guardian is a freaking guardian who protects his/her entire team..the Trickster uses lots of..well tricks..
Thus, the Great Weapons Fighter should act as if he uses a great weapon - aka lots of AOE damage - maybe more skills/feats that focus on 'secondary target damage'?
Or perhaps just a straight increase in their power against these secondary targets.
Control wizard is an interesting one for me - for I believe they NEED to have controlling powers - which they do. But in PvP if there are two of them you are basically in the air or pushed around a heck of a lot - often leading to an instant death. However I think if the other changes were implemented this would be fine.
As for the Devoted Cleric - I think they are fine as they are. I mean in PvP they can be the necessary component of a team - but thats how they SHOULD be, take out the cleric first to win makes perfect sense to me!
If all these changes were implemented - I (someone who does not want to pay for this game) would be more likely able to do 'true endgame' dungeons, and I'd probably have more fun at PvP as one of the more "useless" classes (useless the way it is at the moment, that is!)
To clarify my statement from before (how the changes to the classes could potentially help most other complaints)
I'll just state some complains I've noticed, and briefly touch on why this would help.
- Rouges/CW too OP - self explanatory
- Too long dungeon queues - if all classes are useful, there would be more diversity and thus more people sticking with their classes (as opposed to giving up on GWF and going rouge - for example) and thus get to 60 to participate in those end game dungeons
<removed>
If the changes above are implemented - I believe that one could do the Endgame dungeons (albeit with some/lots of difficulty) without paying for these things. At that point, things like greater weapon/armor enchantments would be simply for those 'elite gamers' who want to min/max - but the large majority of the playerbase would have no NEED to spend money to win! Further, it would make those who HAVE spent money feel a sense of 'accomplishment' - for I imagine someone with a greater fire enchantment (who can do lots of damage) would be desired. Of course the prices would need to be altered.
I think the general consensus is that more people would pay for things if they were cheaper - hell I know I would be more tempted to drop 5 or 10 bucks for a 'pretty cool mount that does nothing really that beneficial' than 40 freaking dollars for one...
Well if you read this massive wall...I both salute you and thank you for taking the time - please let me know what you think are the biggest issues and - if at all possible your ways in which these issues could be resolved.
I think if many people provided insight/interest in player-driven changes, Perfect World/Cryptic could actually listen and change these issues that many people are having.
I COMPLETELY understand the need to make money - but take this example;
If you price your product (for example, clothing) at 100$, yes of course you will get people who will buy it - thus you may make a pretty nice profit from the offset - but in the long run no1 new will WANT bread cause it costs too **** much! Especially when there are other bakeries that offer bread at 5$ a loaf...
That being said, if things were competitively priced, people will not only want to pay "a little here, a little there", but they will do this MORE and for LONGER!
"Hey guys, you can buy a character slot for 20$!" -Uh..no thanks
vs
"Hey guys, you can buy a character slot for 1$!" -Well I wanted to try that new class, but didnt want to get rid of my godly [two other characters], so why not. And hell, while I'm at it maybe I'll spend 4$ on start-up gear for him/her."
More people (I believe) will do the second option.
Anyways yeah...massive wall...sorry, thanks for reading/ignoring haha.
Cheers, hope to see you in-game!
Post edited by grayho on
0
Comments
+10 Internets
10/10 would bang.
As i said in another post for me its a mental thing, i cant quite explain it but those huge chunks of change for some of these features are simply offputting.
I think this game is slick as hell, and i would love to make it a staple, i just am not sure. However, if they lowered those prices i would definitely be dropping 5 here, 10 there, 10 again over there...etc...
When I saw a mount in game I thought "**** that's pretty sweet" and then a split second later I thought "that person spent approx 30-40 bucks on that..." and get this like 'ehh..' feeling.
I love the game, I think the combat is awesome - watching the showcase videos of the characters before I played is what made me download the game - the GWF actually looked and FELT like a freaking great weapon wielding <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, as opposed to just simply slashes with no real 'weight' behind them.
I have never paid for any 'F2P' game, but I would for this one if it werent fueled by pure greed and poor pricing choices.
No Troll. I meant what I said. I'd bang the heck outta ya over that post. j/k
Honestly, what you said makes a lot of sense at least to me it does. I really do love this game, Its easily became my favorite MMO. I'm not max level, but I've lived mostly in the foundry story missions, and taken my time with each area. I've not missed a single quest in any of the zones and I've worked hard to make sure to explore every inch of every map I can.
But reading some of the complaints on here cause me some worry for the game. Things like the $40 dollar mounts, the $6 respec, and the unbalanced (wonky) classes make me fearful of trying to do endgame content. I've only played DC and rogue. My Dc is currently in the late 30's and I'm pleased with it for the most part, but I've started to notice when I group with a GF their health explodes of the screen. I even got blamed for it a number of times, saying I need to Learn to heal better. The Cleric in this game doesn't heal like people expect it to, it heals very subjectively(?)
PvP is always the problem. Once a game has it, everything has to be balanced around it, and it sucks.
In this game, adds can do lots of damage due to the combat advantage system, so you need controllers to deal with huge waves (a GWF and/or a CW basically). It's intended, not a bug and not a fail of the game. It boosts teamwork and gives the rest of the team things to do besides just "DPS" or healing.
I know what you mean: as a tank character, you like the feeling of holding all the mobs and become that brick wall, it's what gives your class protagonism and you must feel like you're not doing your job right if you can't tank all the mobs of the room.
But it's intended: the striker adds usually are not what you should worry about, but only the boss: other members of your team must deal with those minions and clear them quickly so the single target DPS can keep focusing down the obss, you can keep tanking the boss and the cleric doesn't overextend with her heals.
- Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer)
- Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur)
- Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC)
- Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
Check Steppenkat's Foundry Quest Reviews!
+1 from me.
Yeah, playing as a GF, I'll tell you that ALL clerics I've seen they use the same few skills - mega mass healing (sorry I don't know the names lol, never played cleric), weaker regen healing, the ball you throw on your enemies so you heal when you hit them, and the little ward you can place on the ground that negates a large portion of damage.
What I consider a "good" cleric is one who is largely self-reliant - one that jumps around dodging as much stuff as they can while still throwing out heals.
One healer I know was with me doing the Brain boss (idk what it was called, like Yriggisil or something), but he just ran around healing the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of everyone in trouble, while hardly needing to be taken care of (i.e he hardly got downed, hardly lost HP, etc)
Stick with it though buddy, healers are awesome and necessary!
Oh no I totally get what you mean, but I don't think you fully understand how little damage I do.
That being said, yes for PvP it would be rediculous if I had THAT much HP - I would never die. So clearly for PvP it would need to be altered for that.
I think a lot of PvP needs to be altered - for example enchantments and mounts should be disabled - cause they provide a P2W advantage.
So thank you for your feedback - you are correct in your statement that my original, unaltered logic was flawed
While I personally do not have any experience with the GWF, my brother plays that class (and I watch/ party with him all the time)
I notice that typically he is second or third on the damage meter at the end of the dungeon. Which is pretty good, but after playing the T2 dungeon, while I have no facts for this next statement (for no GWF was in that party) I think I can safely say it wouldn't have made much a difference.
There were too many adds with too much HP/defense (at level 65) for any 'run-of-the-mill' GWF to do much impact.
I am not trying to dispute whether or not GWF is 'good' or 'bad' - lots of people think they are a 'useless' class - but I think they are just as necessary as any other, soley for their AOE damage.
That being said, suppose a group of people (one of each class) that will not pay money for anything tried to take on a T2 dungeon - yes of course there are those 'super skilled players' that can do these dungeons 'for free'. But I think a large majority (if not all) will be unable to.
My group in that T2 dungeon was doing a lot of damage, we were still unable to get past 1/4th of the bosses HP all due to those adds - whom we did little to no damage to. I think if we had a GWF it may have been a tiny bit better (in terms of add control) but still unfeasable.
I completely agree with you that the GWF does do significant AOE damage, and is thus a useful asset to any group - I just don't feel like it is where it should be.
Thank you for your insight though!
-Edit-
To reply to your last half of your comment - it all sounds nice on paper and I wish it were as easy as that sounds, but realistically if one gets a group of randoms it's really hard to pull that off.
Not only that but once the healer does go 'too far' and pulls threat, who is supposed to get them off? Typically the GF would then have to run away from the boss and pull threat off all of them, and if you miss even ONE enemy with that threat-pull, the healer can still die.
But I understand and wish your general premise of "its a team-based game" could be that easy, it would make the game even more enjoyable and do-able!
As it is, rogues have lashing strike and shocking execution hitting too hard. The former due to 100% crit in stealth and its long cd, the latter due to having so much of its damage baseline rather than based on the missing health percentage. Both need fixed, and their utility needs buffed to make them more viable at what they should do - single target sustained pressure with utility (being a trickster, not an assassin) with optional burst that is only on par with their utility, not drastically eclipsing it.
A large part of the problems in PVP is the lack of CC DR. In any bg with 2 gwfs in it, they can zerg on one target and stunlock them to death in 5 seconds by blowing all their encounter powers. There either needs to be a hard cap on how long you can't lose control of your character or radical DRs on repeated CCs of the same type (ie, knockdowns vs dazes).
I've stopped when I've read "class changes" what should be done is a pure ripoff from D&D, the system is already balanced there, no secret to it, the way it is played is different from MMO, but they are not doing that nor doing typical MMO, that's why there are so many complains, rogues need no nerf, they are the only DPS class in the game so far, you nerf them there will be no DPS... Not only that, changes to the classes are obnoxious and will kill any resemblance with D&D, at that point, for me at least, this game would be over for good, and when I say it I say it thinking on all the flaws it already has regarding D&D, and how they've tricked me into this game with their "D&D MMO" propaganda...
Look, I understand your concern, but the problem over there from what I've read and experienced on dungeons so far is simple: You ended up with at least 2 terrible players who ruined the dungeon, that means, balance has nothing to do with that...
Anyway, I'm not in the mood to keep wasting time on forums, I'll check this thread tomorrow, l8rs
I see your point that getting a 12k crit and only having (for example 20k hp) would be a huge problem.
To me, a 'well balanced pvp' has a 'rock, paper, scissors' element.
Aka a rogue vs rogue does paltry damage, whereas a (for example) GWF is the bane of them, and a GF wrecks a GWF, and the CW kills the GF, and the rouge kills CW (or something of that nature)
So for example maybe a rogue with little hp vs another rogue with little hp, they would do relatively poor damage to eachother (so they aren't doing these 12k crits)
That way I would NEED to go on voice chat to yell at my GWF to get his/her a$$ over to point#1 to kill the rogue and save the point/win the game.
Unfortunately, some of the abbreviations you used I did not understand (what is bg?). It's probably something simple that everyone should know, but I'm a **** xD
I completely agree though that PvP needs to be largely fixed - it's pretty bad, you either get steam-rolled or you steam-roll.
Unfortunately I don't play PvP that much, so I don't have the most in-depth experience or knowledge with it, I mostly play PvE and thus most of my initial post was oriented in that way.
Players may do too much damage at max level PvP (and I agree with that)
But I think they don't do that much damage for T2 dungeons - at least not for a more 'F2P and casual/slightly casual' playerbase.
While I don't have any facts to support this - I imagine the majority of players ARE these 'casual/not willing to pay lots/any money on this game' - and thus will not enjoy this game to the fullest extent that they could if they fixed the classes
(IMO ofc
Well I understand that you didn't want to read my wall of text - completely understandable
I'll try to make this short.
I didn't say 'nerf the dps' - hell give them more PvE damage!
Also the group I played in was great - the adds were too rediculous.
I just think that the classes don't feel ENTIRELY the way they SOUND (and thus SHOULD be)
GF aint much of a Guardian or a Fighter
GWF does pretty good AOE damage as it should - but not enough
DC does heals and is fine, though aggros a heck of a lot
CW controls too much in PvP, but in PvE is relatively fine
TR does too much damage for little to no drawback - proposed solution is not 'nerf them' but rather buff everyone else that needs a buff and slightly lower TR hp/defense so they are more squishy and thus would be required to be a TRICKSTER to win.
Idk how DnD was/is - so if you feel like these characters are perfect the way they are - well rock on that's cool! I just think that they kinda need to be changed to feel more like their names.
Cheers buddy!
Now that I see I spelt that wrong that bothers me too, sorry buddy haha!
Thank you friend
I apologise, not to be rude - but I did not understand your statement.
I understand your first part - that the cleric forum has a post about a possible bug - but the rest lost me.
Can you please elaborate so that I may make sense of it? I would like to hear what your opinion is.
Sorry bub! :<
On the money side.. I thought it was okay to pay 10 euros on keys just for once.. (You know, I'm actually enjoying this game) but with the money prices, that's about all I'll do in this month. If an epic mount was 10 dollar, extra classes were 1. I'd get 4 chars with 4 epic mounts, meaning I'd spend the same.
But right now, I just won't. Stuff is way too expensive.
Yeah I completely agree with you, maybe a one time purchase - or like a monthly limit of 5-10$ is fine (if you really want) but their pricing is totally messed for it to be a constant thing.
If they brought it down to a reasonable - or even better a generous amount - I think lots of people would be WAY more willing to drop 5 bucks here, 5 bucks there.
Couple that with new content fairly consistently, and they'd have themselves a long-term money maker.