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Affordable respecs
yasha00
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 479 Bounty Hunter
So I can understand the various reasons why people would like cheaper respec options; what I can't understand is why some people are bent on not having cheaper respec options.
Everything I have seen so far is just condemning people who want cheaper respecs as either unemployed bums who need to go mow people's lawns, or exploiters that have rushed to level cap and don't know how to play; or have said repecs are not necessary because they would only use them a couple of times a year.
No one has said "more affordable respecs are bad because....(insert reason)". The only thing close to this has been that it is against the spirit of D&D, which considering everything else in the game not D&D related is a pretty weak argument for withholding the fun and creativity that cheaper respecs would provide to many people.
So all these heated anti-respec posts must have some meat behind them right? You guys must have some burning issue as to why adding a more affordable respec option would be so detrimental to the game that you have to spam threads about it with posts belittling people who are asking for such?
Please enlighten us, how is providing cheaper repec options bad for the game? Why is it such a bad idea that you feel the need to even post about it?
I want to understand.
Everything I have seen so far is just condemning people who want cheaper respecs as either unemployed bums who need to go mow people's lawns, or exploiters that have rushed to level cap and don't know how to play; or have said repecs are not necessary because they would only use them a couple of times a year.
No one has said "more affordable respecs are bad because....(insert reason)". The only thing close to this has been that it is against the spirit of D&D, which considering everything else in the game not D&D related is a pretty weak argument for withholding the fun and creativity that cheaper respecs would provide to many people.
So all these heated anti-respec posts must have some meat behind them right? You guys must have some burning issue as to why adding a more affordable respec option would be so detrimental to the game that you have to spam threads about it with posts belittling people who are asking for such?
Please enlighten us, how is providing cheaper repec options bad for the game? Why is it such a bad idea that you feel the need to even post about it?
I want to understand.
Post edited by yasha00 on
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Look at it from Cryptic/PWI's point of view. Why do you think a respec costs 600 Zen? People respec often. If they pay cash for it, Cryptic gets paid often. They charge for it in every Cryptic/PWI game I have ever played or tested. It obviously works for them just as well as keys for lockboxes. They are also very keen at keeping these tokens on the character that you were on when you buy it. You can't resell them (or couldn't in the past so that may change too) and you can't even send them to an alt. I do think, however, that part of your gift box you will probably get at max level (since I have gotten 2? I think already) should have one. By then, you will have learned everything you did wrong leveling and be set to respec for end-game (whatever that may be without raids). So I would concede to saying a free one at attaining max level and maybe one halfway there but not unlimited free respecs (in-game currency is free so I'm not going to count any gold or AD as a cost, nor time since this is not a job but rather leisure). AD sells for Zen. Do dailies. Get your Foundry reward. Sell them. Respec for free. Or at least on someone elses real life currency since they had to buy it to sell it to you. The AH is even for AD. One man's junk is another man's treasure - in this case a respec token. The system is in place for you never pay a single penny for anything in the game. Why should they charge less or make it free. It's obtainable. You just have to work for it.
more affordable respecs are bad because....(inserted reason: they are obtainable for absolutely no cost if you really want them.)
Well that is not a reason why making respecs more affordable is bad for the game, you are just asserting that 1) the firm makes money from respecs and 2) you can get them for free if you grind enough.
I'm asking for reasons why people think lessening the amount it costs in either money or grind time is such a bad idea.
It's clearly something a number of people, myself included, feel very strongly about. Maybe PWE/cryptic will get the message.
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The thread I was going to post in was locked because a bunch of people apparently felt so strongly that more affordable respecs would be bad for the game that they trolled it to death.
The trouble is...you have on one extreme, die-hard fans who want to pay money to support the game. On the other extreme, you have players who refuse to spend a single cent. It makes it hard for people in the middle to have a reasonable conversation.
I'd like to see a system similar to what Cryptic did in Champions Online. CO allows respecs via in-game currency. It's cheap to just rollback or undo the last couple level up choices you made, but it gets quite expensive to respec completely once you're at a high level. So there's some incentive to buy tokens, but it's not too bad.
Star Trek Online does need cash purchases for respecs, I think. The difference there is that paid subscription players get a number of free respecs as a character level ups. We don't have paid subscribers here.
Actually, this game has a great deal of D&D related material.
I doubt that, but here you go (in addition to it not being in the spirit of D&D).
Three reasons why respecs should be expensive:
1. Respecs promote min-maxing and elitism.
2. Respecs trivialize character development choices.
3. Respecs minimize build diversity.
(BTW, Cryptic has always granted free respecs when significant ability changes have been made. That is not a valid reason to ask for free/cheaper respecs.)
So 600zen/spec is ok, but give us two respec tokens per character. That would be fair.
Best regards,
Kalantris
Thanks for posting some reasons for your view.
First off, point 3 is not true. In fact, not having affordable respecs minimizes build diversity because no one is game to experiment with new builds and will just follow the builds posted on the net. Being able to respec more often allows for experimentation, creativity, and a diversity of builds.
As for points one and two, yes I understand what you are saying, however, even if respecs are more affordable you can choose not to respec to fit your RP needs without demanding an unnecessary burden on people who like to experiment with that sort of thing.
As for point one, I never really thought about it that way, but do you think that by merely making respecs expensive you can curb human nature? Or is it really good for the game to do so?
I played GW2 spvp everyday since launch, and I must have changed my build thousands of times; it wasn't like there was one "ultimate" build and I saw so-called OP builds become considered UP and the reverse over the course of that time.
I don't expect that degree of flexibility, but for people who like to push the boundries of their characters and develop new and unique builds/tactics paying $6 just to try out a new build is way too expensive.
Look, the more I play this game the more I want to experiment with builds. We have only 3 CW builds posted on the forums- two of the people who posted them lamented that they wished respecs were more affordable so that they could experiment more. GW2 had hundreds of builds posted in beta and sites dedicated to posting different builds.
What made the devs go from a game that didn't require overly expensive respeccing pre-closed beta4 to a model that stifles the community creativity in this way?
Not only that but this is an open beta- lets at least have an environment where we can test out what all these abillities and combinations of abilities/feats/powers can do without going bankrupt in the process.
To the children moaning that if they don't change this, the game will flop:sure... sure...
get to level 60, sell 1 item, enough diamonds for a token.
Elf Control Wizard - Dragon
Not really sure of your logic there- many of the people who have asked for cheaper respecs have guardian or HoN packs; and none of them (that I know of) have said not having cheaper respecs will cause the game to "flop". But when logic fails go ahead and feel free to say something totally irrevelevant and call me names.
Hmmm no, but if you want to make up your own reality fine, doesn't bother me. In this same thread there was someone saying this game will be irrelevant in 2 months if this doesn't change and to be honest it's mostly froobs whining about this (sure there are HoTN and Guardians as well but the froobs are the most vocal)
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?206992-Affordable-respecs&p=2811821&viewfull=1#post2811821
Well that is good news-although many of the people who have asked for more affordable respecs were at 60.....; not to mention that this would run counter to the claim that "PWE has done its research well" since if what you say is true then respecs are afforable. Wait- are you talking about some super rare item perhaps?
At any rate I hope it is as you say.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=2949967
Yep you are right a guardian did say that, guess I should learn to read.
Obviously a game is not going to flop over one element like this; but making respecs cheaper doesn't hurt anyone elses fun in the game, and no one has presented a convincing argument for why it would be bad for the game either.
Now Warti has got my hopes up that at level 60 respecs are actually cheap, which is good to hear. At the moment I don't even have a quarter of the AD needed for a paragon feat respec (unless I dip into my guardian AD).
Interesting, I take it you played star trek/other PWE games? If so how do you handle the respec expense, or are you not really into experimenting with builds? (or is the cost actually cheap as Warti says?)
Liberated Borg -Captain USS Solstice
Member of Starfleet Borg Task Force - Tactical Unit
Don't take me wrong, I'd love for all prices to get cheaper but it's more likely that they will held 'sales' or 'specials' than they lower them (though in STO they are worth 'just' 4$). Of course, asking doesn't cost nothing but there are 2 groups blurring now:
1) lower prices on X because it's exhorbitant
2) "This is P2W, this game is gonna fail stoopid whales"
Of course group 2 doesn't understand that the only reason they can play without spending a dime is because there are people who spend money in the cash shop, but 14 years old aren't always the smartest
When I play(ed) STO seriously, I was subbing. You get free respecs. Later I used the allowance of CP you got for subbing. In STO actually the cost goes up the more you level
EDIT:actually the cost in 'merits' goes up, the real cash value of the retrain tokens is always 4 bucks
I can swap all my abilities at will.
Actually let me elaborate on this because you at least attempted to give a reason for your statement.
Basically, its time to debunk the myth that respeccing in an mmo is against the spirit of D&D. Consider that in D&D all the variables are known to the player. There are no complex or "hidden" stats that could impact a build. Not only that but I can easily create any build I want to and test it against "real" encounters to experiment with ideas for where I would like my character to ultimately go.
Even if I do end up with something I really do not like I can just talk with the DM, who would usually allow me to change around some things.
What we have now is actually more "against the spirit of D&D". Players have comparatively little clarity on the details of what each stat really does or how synergies of stats/feats/powers will work in and of themselves or within a group. And charging $6 a pop to make any change is certainly not in the D&D spirit; a DM wouldn't last long in a group if they pulled something like that.
So in summary cheaper respecs are so far from being "not in the spirit of D&D", especially compared to other things in this game, that I wonder how it even pops up as a reason. What's more if you feel strongly that you should never respec- even if respecs were cheaper you can still play that way!