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End-Game PvP needs some serious work (not a rant I promise)
romequietus
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 15 Arc User
To start, allow me to say I've been doing PvP in various MMOs since the original Diablo and more importantly, when Ultima Online launched in 1997. I've seen alot of different pvp systems from UO where we killed each other using the best skill combinations to WoW where we killed each other using the FotM class/comination. I've seen some amazing systems where players actually were balanced (Mage PvP in UO) and alot of bad stuff (WoW's refusal to ever balance anything). I had a great time running a PvP Guild in Star Wars the Old Republic but tired of its inability to deliver large scale combat. Now, I've come to Neverwinter Online to enjoy some casual PvP and hang up my obsessive pvp habits. So far, so good.
Yes, in terms of getting into a PvP match and having a fast paced experience, the Devs here have got the right idea. I absolutely loved the leveling up process and the PvP I took part in every step of the way. But then I got to the end game and everything changed. Don't stop reading there, I'm not going to start crying about how I got killed extremely fast because I didn't have any gearz or didn't party with a cleric and a guardian. No I did that. In fact, in a matter of hours from hitting 60 I collected all my PvP gear and have some decent gems slotted. Oh and I'm a CW so I'm not complaining about my class here.
The problem with end game pvp is that its just too fast paced. I mean, aside from two clerics standing next to each other with a guardian covering the weakened one, people die to fast. Everyone dies to fast. I die too fast, my enemies die to fast. In fact now that I changed my spec on my CW, even clerics and guardians die too fast (I now debuff ALOT of their mitigation). So everyone is dying too fast.
This isn't Call of Duty where we can hide behind a trash can and snipe people. We didn't come here to die to a single attack routine. We came here for fantasy and I hope for a fighting experience that would go back and forth with the winner not so clearly determined by who has all their burst lined up the fastest.
I mean seriously, if we're going to have people dying this fast, then there needs to be more stuff for people to take cover behind or something. TRs do so much damage, its goodbye if one gets too close or one gets CC'd and then he jumps into the fight. CW's do so much damage, in some matches I just sit back, roll my finger over three or four buttons while holding down my mouse button and the person I target is dead. I can't count how many times I've seen someone in combat, cast a single dot on them and when they ran out of my line of sight having killed their opponent, my dot eats up the rest of their health. Where's the fun in that?
I have a bad feeling things aren't going to change either. We cant just reduce DPS or else clerics won't die. We can't just raise everyone's health, then that tenebrious enchant would do even more ridiculous damage for Guardians. We can't really just put in a bunch of junk for people to hide behind or else... well IDK, maybe people will cry it favors rogues too much.
What we have here folks is something similar to what I saw in SWTOR when I finally got to end game. In that game, I saw as soon as I got to fighting in some big fights, the game engine couldn't support it. I waited and waited and guess what? They cant change the game engine so as far as I know, large scale PvP never happened. It was a desing flaw built into the game.
Here we have a system that was AFAIK designed to be fast paced. People ride to and from the control nodes and die within moments of arriving. I guess we're either going to have to accept the idea of running into death repeatedly in order to achieve our goals or having to ALWAYS premade with two clerics if we want any sort of chance of not dying to the first burst of damage thrown at us.
Again, I have all my PvP gear. I'm a CW, considered fairly decent as both a player and a class. So what do we do? Always queue premade? Suddenly I feel like I'm playing guild wars all over again. What happened to the casual PvP I enjoyed so much while leveling? Thoughts, comment, similar stories?
In fact, as it is now, people fight for the node in the middle and if they see a premade, almost every match, one person will stop playing. Isn't it possible for the Devs to design the pvp matches so that any team has a chance or at least the teams that get matched up have a chance? Does the losing team REALLY need to receive more than half the glory that the winning team gets? Couldn't there be some sort of performance system in place that values participation and not just who wins or loses? I had a guy argue with me today saying, whether he tried or not, he'd get the same reward at the end... Is this really the PvP system the Devs had in mind when it encourages players to think like this?
Yes, in terms of getting into a PvP match and having a fast paced experience, the Devs here have got the right idea. I absolutely loved the leveling up process and the PvP I took part in every step of the way. But then I got to the end game and everything changed. Don't stop reading there, I'm not going to start crying about how I got killed extremely fast because I didn't have any gearz or didn't party with a cleric and a guardian. No I did that. In fact, in a matter of hours from hitting 60 I collected all my PvP gear and have some decent gems slotted. Oh and I'm a CW so I'm not complaining about my class here.
The problem with end game pvp is that its just too fast paced. I mean, aside from two clerics standing next to each other with a guardian covering the weakened one, people die to fast. Everyone dies to fast. I die too fast, my enemies die to fast. In fact now that I changed my spec on my CW, even clerics and guardians die too fast (I now debuff ALOT of their mitigation). So everyone is dying too fast.
This isn't Call of Duty where we can hide behind a trash can and snipe people. We didn't come here to die to a single attack routine. We came here for fantasy and I hope for a fighting experience that would go back and forth with the winner not so clearly determined by who has all their burst lined up the fastest.
I mean seriously, if we're going to have people dying this fast, then there needs to be more stuff for people to take cover behind or something. TRs do so much damage, its goodbye if one gets too close or one gets CC'd and then he jumps into the fight. CW's do so much damage, in some matches I just sit back, roll my finger over three or four buttons while holding down my mouse button and the person I target is dead. I can't count how many times I've seen someone in combat, cast a single dot on them and when they ran out of my line of sight having killed their opponent, my dot eats up the rest of their health. Where's the fun in that?
I have a bad feeling things aren't going to change either. We cant just reduce DPS or else clerics won't die. We can't just raise everyone's health, then that tenebrious enchant would do even more ridiculous damage for Guardians. We can't really just put in a bunch of junk for people to hide behind or else... well IDK, maybe people will cry it favors rogues too much.
What we have here folks is something similar to what I saw in SWTOR when I finally got to end game. In that game, I saw as soon as I got to fighting in some big fights, the game engine couldn't support it. I waited and waited and guess what? They cant change the game engine so as far as I know, large scale PvP never happened. It was a desing flaw built into the game.
Here we have a system that was AFAIK designed to be fast paced. People ride to and from the control nodes and die within moments of arriving. I guess we're either going to have to accept the idea of running into death repeatedly in order to achieve our goals or having to ALWAYS premade with two clerics if we want any sort of chance of not dying to the first burst of damage thrown at us.
Again, I have all my PvP gear. I'm a CW, considered fairly decent as both a player and a class. So what do we do? Always queue premade? Suddenly I feel like I'm playing guild wars all over again. What happened to the casual PvP I enjoyed so much while leveling? Thoughts, comment, similar stories?
In fact, as it is now, people fight for the node in the middle and if they see a premade, almost every match, one person will stop playing. Isn't it possible for the Devs to design the pvp matches so that any team has a chance or at least the teams that get matched up have a chance? Does the losing team REALLY need to receive more than half the glory that the winning team gets? Couldn't there be some sort of performance system in place that values participation and not just who wins or loses? I had a guy argue with me today saying, whether he tried or not, he'd get the same reward at the end... Is this really the PvP system the Devs had in mind when it encourages players to think like this?
Post edited by romequietus on
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Comments
I'll say that my impression of PvP in Neverwinter at the moment is pretty much the same as yours. 10-59 was enjoyable most of the time, premades were rare, and you didn't get killed in a stunlock. The "time-to-kill" was much higher than it is at 60. As you said, if you run up to a node, you get instantly CCed and silenced, and before you can do anything you are respawning, unless you are backed by two competent clerics.
I think the reward for the losing team is fine. 350 plus a small bonus (I think the bonus is performance based) is all right, but matching premades against PUGs is not. I'll probably start leaving matches where the other side runs a premade, because I don't need the glory enough to get bulled for fifteen minutes. Done that in other games, but it didn't make sense there and it doesn't make sense here (spending recreation time on something that is frustrating). I'd rather go and do an enjoyable foundry quest instead. My one problem with leaving is that the other four people won't get a replacement, but at the end of the day that is the responsibility of the developers.
To add to this, an increasing number of rogues are now exploiting a skill that causes other players to crash out of the game. I hope tonight's maintenance addresses this. I had to ctrl+alt+del and close the hung process several times yesterday.
So, yes, the PvP started out very promising here, but at 60 it is actually much less enjoyable. It IS a beta, though, and the game is not PvP-centric, so I understand that there are issues and that it may take time for them to get addressed. In the meantime, I decided to level some alts, especially since the PvP queues at lower levels are lightning fast at the moment.
But I disagree with changing numbers not being the answer. In fact, it is all in the numbers after latency issues are fixed for things such as CW dodging stuff they shouldn't have. The engine imo is prefect for PvP and the game is in open beta. When WoW's PvP first came out the balance was horrendous. Rogues could one shot and the whole jazz of other problems, but after so many years it has found its sweet spot in 3v3 balance, while 2v2s/RBGs remain fun even if semi-unbalanced. We just have to see what the devs do, it is honestly to early to tell due to the limited info we have so far.
Also, I've done alot of PvP over the 3-4 days I've been 60. A huge problem I see, and why you see people die too quickly (although overall, it is a tad quick overall) is because they commit to a fight they can not win. They will try to defend a point outmanned without a cleric, they will try to backcap with 3 enemies within a 10 second mount distance. The majority of people don't understand mounting up and getting out when 4-5 enemies show up when you have 3 people is the better option. Alot don't full understand what a class can do and just press their abilities in hopes that it saves them. People over extend and chase just to be killed by the incoming backup.
I can go on and on, but what I'm basically saying is that we have to wait for the community to have a general understanding of the PvP, and we have to wait for further balance changes because this is a fresh new beta.
It sucks bad enough they can be back in the battle at full health in a a matter of seconds, but allowing them to come with accumulated action points is too much.
They could lower the damage and healing by x% or increase the HP temporarily while being in an arena. The PvP gear doesn't really seem to have much of an impact on the TTK. I agree that we don't need resilience. That wasn't a fun-improving element.
This right here is my biggest complaint with pvp currently. The locking up of the game via this exploit. I fought the same premade a lot the other night. It was fun except that the rogue knew how to make this work. And it seems a lot more rogues now understand how to pull this exploit off.
This leaves no room for enjoyment if you are ctrl alt deleting twice in one match, its GG.
I can deal with the TR crazy daily attack that pretty much 1 shots me. I can deal with GF throwing me around and blocking all my CC if theyre good. I can accept that I now have a hard time with GWF and that DC are almost unkillable if they know what theyre doing. And I can even accept it when other CWs chain CC me. That's all the games mechanics.
However, this exploit is not a mechanic of the game. it is a horrible nasty bug that ruins the enjoyment for a lot of people. I just love how the TR get this extra advantage.
I don't like when it happens to me or my team or if it happens to the other players team members. Anyone it happens to is just lame. Totally kills the enjoyment. I find no fun in having to close the process mulitple times and also no fun when I know we are winning because the enemies are being DC with an exploit.
Plz hurry up and fix this. It is the #1 thing to do for pvp. Leave the classes alone balance wise and just fix this bug exploit
PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
All in all I'd say TTK needs to be lowered just a bit, let's not get too extreme here otherwise outlast teams will be impossible to beat. They are already very viable.