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The Four Class Roles of 4e and why your complaints are invalid.
wuhsin
Banned Users Posts: 0 Arc User
I hear a lot of this.
So I thought I would take a moment to explain the four class roles in D&D 4e and how they have been implemented in this game. As a Dungeon Master I spent a lot of time learning about this system to understand it's mechanics. The biggest complaint is that the GWF is no good, usually on the basis that the TR does more damage, and the CW has better CC. An experienced D&D player knows these complaints are pure rubbish, since that's the way those classes are meant to be. Below is a list of the four Class Roles.
Controller - Control Wizard - Specializes in AoE and CC.
Defender - Great Weapon Fighter, Guardian Fighter - Tanking, and some AoE/CC.
Leader - Devoted Cleric - Healing, Buffing Allies.
Striker - Trickster Rogue - Dealing damage.
Now, I hope some of you will stop whining about TR's doing damage, CW's having CC, and GWF's not having high DPS now. It's kind of funny how no one is whining about Clerics, when traditionally they've always been the most rigged class in D&D. I can't count how many times I ran out of potions and wished I could pull a free heal out of my <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
Dear PWE,
Please Nerf Paper. Scissors is fine.
Sincerely,
Rock.
So I thought I would take a moment to explain the four class roles in D&D 4e and how they have been implemented in this game. As a Dungeon Master I spent a lot of time learning about this system to understand it's mechanics. The biggest complaint is that the GWF is no good, usually on the basis that the TR does more damage, and the CW has better CC. An experienced D&D player knows these complaints are pure rubbish, since that's the way those classes are meant to be. Below is a list of the four Class Roles.
Controller - Control Wizard - Specializes in AoE and CC.
Defender - Great Weapon Fighter, Guardian Fighter - Tanking, and some AoE/CC.
Leader - Devoted Cleric - Healing, Buffing Allies.
Striker - Trickster Rogue - Dealing damage.
Now, I hope some of you will stop whining about TR's doing damage, CW's having CC, and GWF's not having high DPS now. It's kind of funny how no one is whining about Clerics, when traditionally they've always been the most rigged class in D&D. I can't count how many times I ran out of potions and wished I could pull a free heal out of my <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Post edited by wuhsin on
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Comments
I do agree with what you are saying, although I'm sure you'll be in for a bunch of posts that don't see eye to eye. Although, I don't see the issue with clerics healing - apart from some of the threat issues.
| Lust | Level 60 Guardian Fighter 15.8k GS|
Threat issues are a legitimate concern, though in most tabletop games foes tend to target the healer first since combat is purely strategic, none of this hack-and-slash nonsense.
D&d = pick a role, dont like it ?? change.
Trickster rouge is op, lol well duh he is the DMG class.
This concept is lost on a large majority of players. They take D&D mechanics and use them to justify things within NW, when NW itself follows absolutely 0 of those mechanics they talk about.
Actually his post is 100% valid. Those really are the roles each class fits, and if you play your class with those expectations in this game you'll be just fine.
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Great_Weapon_Fighter
I know I've seen GWF as a defender/striker at some point, but apparently, this got retcon-ed.
Anyway, my speculation:
The upcoming classes will be split on a 4x4 diagram with one axis as the archetype and one as the roles. Something like this:
Defender
Leader
Striker
Controler
Fighter
Guardian
Warlord
GWF
?Wrestler?
Rogue
Acrobat?
Bard
Trickster
Trapmaster
Cleric
Paladin
Devoted
Monk?
Something?
Wizard
Invoker
Transmuter---Evoker
Control
Just speculation...
Anyway, my point being, we need more classes. Let's wait and see.
Exactly, this isn't DDO where they try to be as close to DnD mechanics as possible, it has standard mmo mechanics for the most part. GWF in particular, while it may work in an actual pen and paper game, does not work out well here because it cannot tank and cannot do DPS worth a **** (At early levels anyhow) and that makes them largely pointless from a gameplay standpoint. Who cares if they are balanced in the pen and paper game, that isn't even remotely close to Neverwinter the MMO. In WoW people don't cite Warcraft 3 for game balance discussions.
Not quite. Yes, it is possible to fit classes into roles that are related to D&D. However, it doesn't apply when you consider MMO mechanics.
In an MMO, if you choose to forego various benefits of your class, and the game allows you to do so, you should be competitive. Only 1 tank is required in this game, for example. What benefit does the GWF bring in this situation if a GF is brought along? There would be legitimately no reason to bring a GWF if you have a tank. Are you going to say it's ok for a class to be completely irrelevant?
Ignoring the actual implementation of things, that's the essential argument at hand here. If you put PNP directly into an MMO, you create friction and irrelevancies.
I love the system as it is now- every class is individual and has its own purpose, rather than 'Somene specced tank, someone specced heals, and 3 other people of any class specced dps'.
Composition actually matters.
Learn to fulfill your role and take pride in doing it well, because healing/tanking/CC are all as important as damage.
That was changed, it didnt used to say he was a Striker, it used to say he was a SECONDARY tank, but a PRIMARY damage dealer. The entire class is laid out like that anyways, look at his damage skills VS his tank/aggro skills, the whole class description, the fact that he uses a 2h weapon.. The way i see it, he should be a striker 1st, tank 2nd. Rogue is striker 1st, and CC 2nd. The 20-25% survivability hit the rogue takes compared to the GWF is made up for with Stealth and an actual dodge mechanic, GWF's cannot 'dodge'. they only eat.
Perhaps in the future when this rumored "aura" buff is going to be implemented for them. But until then, they remain a selfish low hitting DPS class that only out does pure DPS when they out gear them. Even then...
Rogues on the other hand aren't really that heavy hitting straight up. A rogue hitting from the front does pitiful damage. Its all about sneaking behind and using flanking and sneak attacking the enemy or using tricks to inflict large amounts of damage. In an action game, its not able to really let out that tactical planning so its not bothered with, unfortunately damage not being adjusted for it and survivability tactics meant to aid with it being far to beneficial. If your looking at a straight up 'dnd' type scenario, a rogue would most likely lose an upfront fight against say a fighter, while a caster would depend greatly on the rogue managing to sneak attack in and keeping the caster from being able to cast which could easily be good game for the exposed rogue.
Cleric level 5X (Dragon) - Holy goblin so much easier!
A lot of problems would simply be solved if in fact the Sentinel tree fulfilled the role which is described in the description text prior to picking the feats. I'd be happy with that... or maybe if I'm lucky they'll add a new "warlord" paragon and just turn the tree into a serious support spec that truly benefits a party. Either way I'd be happy but I'm not going to hold my breath, due to developer silence concerning legitimate issues.
I agree with how you feel about GWF DPS specs. I have played both specs in epics as well, but I find myself bringing less to the table apart from burning down weaker trash mobs quickly. I guess topping the total damage done is more important for some players though, but it's not as enjoyable when you do it by padding on weak trash mobs over an entire dungeon run.
I guess we'll see where things are heading soon enough...
| Lust | Level 60 Guardian Fighter 15.8k GS|
I wish we could have a warning that pops up every time someone's about to make a post that while this game takes most of it's inspiration off of D&D it doesn't actually use any of it's mechanics and stop ****ing comparing a pen and paper game to an action based computer game already.
There is absolutely nothing about the roles he just defined that do not fit this games mechanics.
There is a reason almost every boss and pack in this game is structured with adds of both weak and strong variety.
GF = tank the boss or non CC-able monster
GWF = tank and kill weak adds
CW = Cc strong adds, supplemental damage on both strong and weak adds
TR = kill strong adds and boss
DC = heal, buff, and cc
Almost ever single encounter in the game touches base on what I just described. There are no group fights that I've seen that are purely single target, or purely weak AoE, or purely strong adds.
The D&D roles fit just fine in this game, and your projecting other MMO expectations onto this one. You are wrong.
Now don't get me wrong, I think the GwF needs to be a bit better at grabbing aggro on small mobs. But that's just a matter of tweaking numbers. Fundamentally, the system is sound.
There are more classes coming
Archer Ranger:
The ranger is one of the most straightforward classes to play in 4th edition D&D and the archer build is the most streamlined of all ranger builds. Archer rangers are ranged strikers that deal high damage with multiple attacks, have a solid armor class, and have a high degree of mobility. Archer rangers also have a few glaring weaknesses: low hit points and healing surges, limited ability to deliver status conditions to enemies, and a pitiful fortitude defense. When optimizing an archer ranger, it is best to focus on improving what an archer ranger is good at, rather than trying to improve the deficiencies of the class.
Scourge Warlock:
Role: Striker. Your Attacks powers are highly damaging and often weaken or hamper the target in some way. You can elude attacks by flying, teleporting, or turning invisible.
Power Source: Arcane. You gain your magical power from a pact you forge with a powerful, supernatural force or an unamed entity.
Key Abilities: Charisma, Constitution, Intelligence
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, leather
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, simple ranged
Both sources are from the Wiki, since I did not want to type out the whole descripto of these two classes.
-Kymos
Actually, I think Neverwinter will follow the 4e class system in which classes fall into 2 groups organized by power source and role.
Available power sources in 4E are: Arcane, Divine, Martial, Primal, & Psionic. There's also Shadow which was never really fully implemented the way the other sources were.
Classes by Power Source
Arcane: Artificer (Leader, from the Eberron Setting), Bard (Leader), Swordmage (Defender), Sorcerer (Striker) Warlock (Striker), Wizard (Controller)
Divine: Avenger (Striker), Cleric (Leader), Invoker (Controller), Paladin (Defender), Runepriest (Leader)
Martial: Fighter (Defender), Ranger (Striker), Rogue (Striker), Warlord (Leader)
Primal: Barbarian (Striker), Druid (Controller), Shaman (Leader), Warden (Defender)
Psionic: Ardent (Leader), Battlemind (Defender), Monk (Striker), Psion (Controller)
Shadow: Assassin (Striker)
There is also a series of Essentials classes that reworked some existing classes into new, easier to use versions to make D&D 4E more easily accessible to new players.
Essentials Class Builds
Berserker Barbarian (Martial Defender)
Binder Warlock (Arcane Controller)
Blackguard Paladin (Divine Striker)
Cavalier Paladin (Divine Defender)
Elementalist Sorcerer (Arcane Striker)
Executioner Assassin (Martial Striker)
Hexblade Warlock (Arcane Striker)
Hunter Ranger (Martial Controller)
Knight Fighter (Martial Defender)
Mage Wizard (Arcane Controller)
Protector Druid (Primal Controller)
Scout Ranger (Martial Striker)
Sentinel Druid (Primal Leader)
Skald Bard (Arcane Leader)
Sha'ir Wizard (Arcane Controller)
Slayer Fighter (Martial Striker)
Warpriest Cleric (Divine Leader)
Witch Wizard (Arcane Controller)
Vampire (Wait, it's a class? wtf WotC?)
Of the various classes I would like to see added to Neverwinter, very few come from the Eseentials line of classes.
I'd like to see all classes from the PHB, PHB2, and PHB3 plus the Swordmage, Sentinel Druid, Hexblade and possibly the witch.
But, on the main topic. I agree with OP. People refuse to see this from the D&D perspective and only see this from the MMO perspective. The game devs have made it like they see fit, and they see it like this. Deal with it. And I'm a GWF player and I still say this.
In the version of D&D that Neverwinter is based on, the Druid is a controller and not a healer. Unless the Devs use the essentials druid (which is possible). The basic Druid in 4e is either a nature mage type with plenty of control abilities or a shapeshifter with mobility, control and a little extra damage.
My prediction of the next leader they add would be the bard. I would say Warlord but its mechanics often rely on granting allies bonus attacks. The bard on the other hand can offer many of the same minor buffs that the warlord has but is also iconic and can even be considered flashy which players would like.