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Tossing around enemies in dungeons, annoyance for melee?

khulodiumkhulodium Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 14 Arc User
edited May 2013 in PvE Discussion
Heya all,

I'm just a lowbie player (lvl 24) enjoying the game as a trickster rogue, great fun so far. I did the second dungeon yesterday and we had two control wizards with us. Now, I have no idea what their powers are called, but there are some powers that allow them to toss around enemies, throwing them around the room. With two control wizards, that was a ton of throwing around and I must say it annoyed the heck out of me as I have to continuously chase these enemies around and am not doing any damage half of the time. It also made it impossible to use my skills that have a charge-up time but still need to connect in melee. Halfway through the dungeon I just stopped chasing them and switched targets to something that wasn't being used as a ping pong ball every 5 seconds, even though that may not have been the best target to attack (Like the tough boss of the group). Does anyone else recognize this nuisance? Any tips?
Post edited by khulodium on

Comments

  • kittledorfkittledorf Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 126 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    Just ask them nicly to stop using Repel, and Ice storm. Not really needed in dungeons anyway, and in the end CWs will have other CCs so wont be as much pushing around then.
  • fcrowlesfcrowles Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 136 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    Yeah. CW should stop doing some damage so rogues can do more damage. Makes sense.
  • khulodiumkhulodium Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Double post.
  • khulodiumkhulodium Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    kittledorf wrote: »
    Just ask them nicly to stop using Repel, and Ice storm. Not really needed in dungeons anyway, and in the end CWs will have other CCs so wont be as much pushing around then.

    Oh, I tried that. I sadly was met with silence on the chat and no adjustment on their part whatsoever. It was a pug, so I had low expectations on that part anyhow. :)
    fcrowles wrote: »
    Yeah. CW should stop doing some damage so rogues can do more damage. Makes sense.

    It's not about stopping to do damage. I'm pretty sure CW's can do damage without pushing around enemies. It isn't about me, it isn't about the CW's, it's about us, as a party.
  • tyler23434tyler23434 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    It's the cw way of saying fu to rouges. Doubt it will stop sice the knock backs are ale dmg which is the cw dps. You have to deal with it or go without ccs. There is more to a party then just the rouges, granted not much but still...
  • khulodiumkhulodium Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    tyler23434 wrote: »
    It's the cw way of saying fu to rouges. Doubt it will stop sice the knock backs are ale dmg which is the cw dps. You have to deal with it or go without ccs. There is more to a party then just the rouges, granted not much but still...

    Well then it sounds like it would possibly be a remedy if the CW's powers need to be changed so their throwing powers are defensive with low damage (like the rogue's distraction) and their direct damage stuff gets more damage.

    This throwing around has led to one or two extra groups being pulled in the dungeon. This wasn't much of a problem in this lowbie dungeon, but I can imagine it being a problem later on. I think the pushing powers should be more of an "oh darn" option and not main dps. That. or the range of the rogue's shadow jump needs to be increased and it's cooldown lowered. :)

    Then again, I'm pretty sure our tank also gave up on tanking, so he was probably facing the same issue. Not that you need a tank in these lowbie instances, but still.
    tyler23434 wrote: »
    rouges.

    I saw a rouge once in an arena. It was a mascara.
  • molldybuttmolldybutt Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    As a Wizard myself I try to be considerate to melee players and I do my best to keep the enemies all bunched in close. Between steal time, sudden storm, and chillstrike that's plenty of aoe power without knocking mobs around annoying people, while keeping CC too. Sure I will use Ice Storm on large packs but that's only if I blew through my other aoes and I know most the mobs are near death. Or even to knock them off ledges to kill them faster. This is at 60, durring some bosses it's nessesary to throw mobs all over the place to create breathing room for Clerics and other people that are getting really hurt.
    Cleric.jpg
    Healer for life. Except not that ugly.
  • licourtrix1licourtrix1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 232 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    It really isn't a matter of being considerate, as a cw we will do far more damage and control not knocking enemies around. Our only viable damage options are AOE's, we need to group up the mobs so our aoe's hit all targets. At lower lvls this is harder to accomplish due to our limited skill choices, but on 50+ repel and icestorm have only very situational applications.
    How much do clothes cost in the Matrix?
  • jayleia1jayleia1 Member Posts: 63 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    OK, if the CW stop the knocks in dungeons and that reduce their low DPS by 20%, but that lets the TR get in 30% more hits which do far more DPS, you get through the dungeon much faster.

    If you're a CW in a party, your main job is to control the battlefield, not be at the top of the damage charts. And to properly control the field, means knowing when to locks, and when to use knocks
  • fcrowlesfcrowles Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 136 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    jayleia1 wrote: »
    OK, if the CW stop the knocks in dungeons and that reduce their low DPS by 20%, but that lets the TR get in 30% more hits which do far more DPS, you get through the dungeon much faster.

    If you're a CW in a party, your main job is to control the battlefield, not be at the top of the damage charts. And to properly control the field, means knowing when to locks, and when to use knocks

    Yeah because I invite CW for heroics for the sole purpose of controlling those overly tough encounters ~ lol
  • khulodiumkhulodium Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    licourtrix1 wrote: »
    It really isn't a matter of being considerate, as a cw we will do far more damage and control not knocking enemies around. Our only viable damage options are AOE's, we need to group up the mobs so our aoe's hit all targets. At lower lvls this is harder to accomplish due to our limited skill choices, but on 50+ repel and icestorm have only very situational applications.

    Good to hear that the problem levels out later by itself. Thanks.
  • imivoimivo Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 1,682 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    A good CW will not use knockbacks in dungeons, because the CW's damage output increases significantly if mobs are bunched up. The few times I was grouped with another CW I found it super annoying when they used Ice Storm or Repel. I would wait until they did and then use Singularity to group the mobs together again.

    Jay, a decent CW will be #1 damage from 1-59 in any dungeon even while they CC. The CC all does damage too, directly and indirectly. If you think CWs have low dps, you need to play with better people. :p
    Unsure about skills and feats? Check the Master List of Class Builds!
  • slouchvikingslouchviking Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I play as a Great Weapon Fighter, and its actually more fun when they toss around enemies, so the fighting doesnt get as stale.
    Even the target area of my Orbital Strike can be changed during cast.
  • khulodiumkhulodium Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    You won't be cleaving much though if the enemies are strewn across the room. And if your orbital strike only hits 2 enemies at a time... well..
  • slouchvikingslouchviking Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    May not be efficient, but its fun.
    Feels more like a proper fight.
    Never seen in a movie where 9 orcs line up around a dwarf warrior in a perfect crescent while 4 other people are spread out shooting them in the back.
  • django02django02 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    The irony is that my DCs divinity powered close burst healing also pushed enemies away. So it's always a 2 sided sword, cause i need this power to heal the melees, but HAMSTER them off the same moment, cause i push their targets away.
  • crawdor24srhcrawdor24srh Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    as a Control Wizard myself iv never ran into a problom where someone was telling me to stop using the Knockback skills. Tho i never use Repel, i perfer using the shield myself only using its knock back ablity when im being overwelmed and need some breathing room.
  • hauwlynhauwlyn Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I end up doing a lot of knocking back in dungeons. I apologize to you rogues and GWFs out there, but I do it when the cleric gets aggro on lots of things, when the Guardian sucks, that's quite often. So bear with it and remember it's keeping the group alive, and at low levels there isn't really better alternatives than Repel on Spell Mastery.
  • nasuradinnasuradin Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    As a 40 CW, my favorite spell is singularity aka the black hole, I only ever used repel in pvp, I would burst my shield in front of the cleric when he or she became surrounded, and I used ice storm to damage bosses because they are immune to KB until I got a better daily for single target damage. Never a complaint was had.
  • imivoimivo Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 1,682 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    hauwlyn wrote: »
    but I do it when the cleric gets aggro on lots of things, when the Guardian sucks, that's quite often.

    It is not because the Guardian Fighter sucks. Tanking in this game works differently than in other games. The job of the GF is to tank large mobs and bosses. It's not possible for him to hold aggo on everything and the cleric will always get aggro. Ideally, the GWF should off-tank the trash, but that is currently not working. The cleric really IS the kiter and the off-tank.

    By knocking back mobs you make it harder for the cleric because it makes it take longer for the group to kill the mobs.
    Unsure about skills and feats? Check the Master List of Class Builds!
  • alecstormalecstorm Member Posts: 142 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    Of course, players who use classes with form of CC that let them move enemies should be aware of what they are doing. This is not a problem at low levels but when things get serious better have a CW that don't push away a mob from the rogue or worst the GF. Those who don't understand that should reroll a warlock when he will be released.
  • mrsundaymorningmrsundaymorning Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    imivo wrote: »
    A good CW will not use knockbacks in dungeons, because the CW's damage output increases significantly if mobs are bunched up. The few times I was grouped with another CW I found it super annoying when they used Ice Storm or Repel. I would wait until they did and then use Singularity to group the mobs together again.

    Jay, a decent CW will be #1 damage from 1-59 in any dungeon even while they CC. The CC all does damage too, directly and indirectly. If you think CWs have low dps, you need to play with better people. :p

    I agreed with this and the thread starter. I am a CW myself currently at lvl 44. I think the CW that you playing with, do know what are the disadvantages of throwing enemies around in dungeon or are trying to get the most dmg as possible so that their names will be on top of the dmg list upon dungeon completion.

    As for myself, I do have any knock back skills equip because my buddy (rogue) kept complaining about it. And so after I've changed my daily to singularity and use aoe dmg like sudden storm or conduit of ice on mobs, I found that my dmg rise significantly higher and my group completed the dungeon faster.

    So I urge that all the CW would think about the people whom they are playing with and be more of a support build than dmg build. It will really help the group a lot and people will appreciate us CW even more.
  • mythrildragonmythrildragon Member Posts: 138 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    YES.

    i had two doing the same everytime thier knockbacks were off cooldown boom they'd send the one mob flying away. if you are a control wizard never use your knock backs unless your cleric is being mobbed. i play a GF and i would rush into the mobs, and just as im about to do mass provoke and hit them, they'd go flying, scattering the nicley clustered group in all directions. it made cragmire crypt take twice as long i even asked them 5 seperate times not to use that skill. if this happens much more im going to make my groups with me [tank], my cleric friend, and 3 dps rogues, simple because you ARE ****ING YOUR PARTY.
  • arcinetharcineth Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I play a GF and I personally don't give a **** if people use knockbacks, largely because I almost never waste my time trying to keep aggro on small adds and trash. My job is to occupy the gigantic mace wielding knockback-on-every-hit ogre, and stop him from forcefully shoving his giant club up my clerics rear.
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