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Secondary Stat - STR or CHA?
lockecolle
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
I've seen little discussion about this theme and it seems pretty important for a dps role such as a TR. Some players claim STR over CHA, others claim the opposite but there's no deeper diggin into that.
STR gives you % damage. CHA gives you % Combat Advantage dmg. It's higher than STR's bonuses but only occurs during stealh.
Being a rogue, you'll most likely be within stealth (at least most of the time). So, the point is: Even with lower STR, does the increased dmg under CA (from higher CHA) brings the overall dps to a higher degree than a full STR build? I mean even when you're not always at stealh, when you do, that few seconds brings the overall dps higher that just having a little more dmg despite stealth?
Another important thing that kicks in (and yet I've heard no one talk about it) is the feat called Strengh Disciple, wich increases bonus DMG from STR by 2/4/6%. Would this feat bring an end to the STR vs CHA discussion for good and make STR the overlord of DPS? I mean, what good is having increased % dmg within stealth if you can get STR and a feat that will bring the lower bonus to an ever higher one then the situational CA dmg?
Does the CA bonus dmg from higher lvls of CHA are greater than STR dmg bonus paired with the Disciple of Strengh feat?
STR gives you % damage. CHA gives you % Combat Advantage dmg. It's higher than STR's bonuses but only occurs during stealh.
Being a rogue, you'll most likely be within stealth (at least most of the time). So, the point is: Even with lower STR, does the increased dmg under CA (from higher CHA) brings the overall dps to a higher degree than a full STR build? I mean even when you're not always at stealh, when you do, that few seconds brings the overall dps higher that just having a little more dmg despite stealth?
Another important thing that kicks in (and yet I've heard no one talk about it) is the feat called Strengh Disciple, wich increases bonus DMG from STR by 2/4/6%. Would this feat bring an end to the STR vs CHA discussion for good and make STR the overlord of DPS? I mean, what good is having increased % dmg within stealth if you can get STR and a feat that will bring the lower bonus to an ever higher one then the situational CA dmg?
Does the CA bonus dmg from higher lvls of CHA are greater than STR dmg bonus paired with the Disciple of Strengh feat?
Post edited by lockecolle on
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As to the feat, it gives you 0.84% extra damage if you focused everything into strength.
P.S. did they add the strength disciple feat in BW4? I don't remember it.
Just wanted to add, Combat advantage is NOT only applied in stealth. Stealth makes it so you always have combat advantage. Have you checked the target markers (circle around the foe you attack) you would notice it turns full purple (I think that was the combat advantage color, dont remember
Something else that I havent tried that should be considered, dont you get extra stats from your augment companion if you raise your charisma?
edit: Actually had a pic from BW4 when I tested my compaions on the training dummies. See that white slice on the target marker? If you attack from that direction you attack with combat advantage. I think the target marker turns full purple if you are stealthed.
+ 0.84% dmg doesn't seem like a big deal and can't justify 3 Feat Points IMO. Agreed?
I have absolutely no idea on that.
This might be another weight in the balance for the STR vs CHA dmg output challenge. What do you think?
Well in boss fights you will (hopefully) not tank so you will always have combat advantage and depending on how much of a boost you get from augment pet..it could be better. I'm not a math person and dont know the exact numbers. you would be able to get at 60 so in all honestly I dont have a clue.
Personally I will go for charisma. Would str be better? Maybe, in the long run I dont think it will mather that much. I think player skill will be a much bigger factor then if you decide to get some extra points in str or cha.
I made a post about this already in this thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?105561-Best-secondary-Ability-Score-STR-or-CHA&p=1519151&viewfull=1#post1519151
If they've designed it well, Charisma should be better than Strength when CA applies (if not, Strength is always at least equal or better than CHA). If that's the case, there's a percentage uptime for CA that makes CHA better than STR for DPS. Where that point is depends on the formula they use.
If you're rarely getting CA, something might be wrong as a rogue isn't an in your face sort of killer. You can get CA by flanking the target, even if they're focused on you. To do this you can use a companion, a player, or your shadow from the Bait and Switch power. You'll know you're getting CA by the little dagger next to the damage numbers, and if you're standing in that purple wedge at the target's feet.
Another bonus of CHA is that it gives +1% deflection bonus per point, on top of what you get from DEX. So if you want more defense, you'll want more CHA.
For PVP, I could see the argument for strength.
For PVE, especially group, with companion, with bait and switch, etc, I can see the argument for CHA.
Like everyone has said, no one KNOWS the actual numbers... We can only make guesses and respec if needed. In betas, I pumped CHA and CA gain as much as I could. In groups, I was using dailies quite often. The extra DPS from more dailies is another factor that has not been mentioned.
Because I am going Drow, it makes sense for me to take the CHA bonus and keep going with it
Strength also adds 1% DoT resist which doesn't add up to a whole lot of reduction and certainly not enough to remain in a cloud of poison but it can stack with racials like the dwarfs Cast Iron Stomach which may be enough to keep on churning out the damage without moving away from the Boss. (just say no to dwarves!)
I tried Str in all the Betas with the Disciple of Strength Feat and I was happy with it, but I am seriously debating on going with Charisma and using the Cat or Ioun companion for stat bonuses this time around. Mainly because of the +2 Charisma to Drow as stated in the new Wiki and the extra companion bonus.
Looks like they opened the closed beta class forums to everyone. so just seeing these posts.
Where are you getting .84%?
Does someone have math on combat advantage?
I have 2 rogues. one, is level 20. with 15 cha.
other is level 35 with 17 cha, and 5/5 20% more effective combat advantage form underhanded tactics.
As far as I can tell, rogue 1 gets 15% CA damage boost, and rogue 2 gets 20%
Tooltip says rogue 1 gets 5% from cha. So what is it? a 10% base?
In which case, rogue 2 is getting 10%+7% and then that 17% is getting 20% increase for 20% total. 3% for 5/5 huh.
Does str work the same way?
When it SAYS 10% for 20 str, is that really 20%, because the base 10 is really there.? and then the 6% from the disc of str. Adding for 16, or 16%, or multiplying like the CA feat 10.6% and 21.2% If there is a hidden 10% there is pretty important for that feat.
I am pretty sure from my testing that str and cha are separate.
As stated I was getting 15% from 15 cha, and 17% from 17 cha. up to 20% with the feat.
I had 19 str in that 17 cha figure. if, str 9% and cha's 7% were adding, then the damage gain from cha would be less then 7%, not a seemingly obvious more.
0.84% is the max damage you can get with this feat if you have 24 str (with 18 str at first and +6str at lvl 60) because 14%*0.06=0.84%
If you have 10 str it's the same thing as if you have 0 str...no bonus!
So if you have 15 Cha it's 5% CA dmg not 15% and 20% of 5% is 1%. For a 24 Cha character, you have with the underhanded tactics a bonus of 14*0.2=2.8% damage with combat advantage.
I'm not sure if this is how the game works...
make a rogue with 13 cha, the lowest you can get. start the game. and go test its CA. its clearly more then 3%.
Or whatever level you are at. Go into the barracks and attack the dummies. keep track of your damage values, then test CA.
its CLEARLY more then 3-14%.
So, if dex has has a flat 10% for crit%, and cha has a flat 10% for CA. which may be related to the base 10.
I wonder if str does too. This would be relevant for 2 things.
1. disc of str feat. as then you would be getting 6% of 15-24. not 5-14.
2. exactly how the str vs cha debate goes. since reading the tooltips it seems like 1 str=1% damage buff straight, while 1 cha is also 1% during CA.
This is not entirely true.
lets say you have 1000 damage base.
20 str. and 20cha.
Using 20=10%, and 20cha=20%.
1000x1.1=1100 then CA for 1320
Add 1 str
1000x1.11=1110 then 20%CA for 1332 =.9% damage gain.
add 1 cha
1000x1.1=1100 then 21% CA for 1331 =.83% damage gain.
add both for 1343.1 for 1.75% damage gain.
If 20 str is 20%, and 20cha is 20%
1000x1.2=1200 then CA for 1440
Add 1 str
1000x1.21=1210 then 20%CA for 1452 =.83% damage gain.
add 1 cha
1000x1.2=1200 then 21% CA for 1452 =.83% damage gain.
add both for 1464.1 for 1.67% damage gain.
If there is a hidden 10% str damage buff, then the value of each point of str is deluded. While of course that 6% feat is stronger.
Of course trying to figure out if there is, is no easy task and will likely require a number of respecs...
That's why we don't really know if Cha is better than Str.
But yeah, with underhanded tactics it's like you got +2,8 Cha (without the deflect of course) if you have 24 Cha but it's not +2,8% dmg when you are in combat advantage...it's more.
CA is all about position. When you stealth you will see the purple ring around an enemy and the orange numbers of dmg flying around. Out of stealth mobs will have a little slice based behind or at their side, if you hit them from there the slice will turn purple and you will deal more dmg. When a mob is dazed or any other snare/silence/daze, the whole ring will be purple also.
It is something that we need to take advantage of whenever we can.
Cha is naturally second. But dex becomes second with executioner feats, while cha gets more with scoundrel.
1712-2026 lashing with 19 str.
1729-2045 lashing with 20 str. a .937% damage gain.
I have 3/3 disc of str.
1849.6 base if 19str=9% boost. (9.54% with 3/3 disc.)
1849.6x 1.106=2045 expected on 10.6% with 3/3 disc.
1686.4 would be if 19str=19% and 20.14% with 3/3
1686.4x1.212= 2044.
still too close to be 100% sure. A rounding error could make the tooltip be off. however, this suggests there is not a hidden 10%. and that str bonus is straight forward as listed.
Leaving all the maths aside for the nerds, I build my TR around stealth and can pretty much stay in stealth mode for entire fights granting there are enemies around.
With Dex + Cha build on my 1st TR account I deal significantly more damage with the help from combat advantage to enemies in PvP and PvE.
With my Dex + Str build on my 2nd TR account I deal slightly higher 'normal' damage when out of stealth, this however leaves me very vulnerable to being attack and losing alot of HP compared to the stealth build.
If you are going for a Str build, you might as well role a GWF since they deal a ton of damage, they are tankier and also have stuns. If you are playing a TR then make most of your Cha and Dex and Stealth.
Edit: I think I typed the wrong examples but they still work to explain nontraditional rounding.