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Crit vs Armor Pen.

licourtrix1licourtrix1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 232 Bounty Hunter
edited April 2013 in The Library
I've seen a lot of talk on crit builds, was wondering if anyone has looked into armor pen as a viable damage build.
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Post edited by licourtrix1 on

Comments

  • neora999neora999 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I haven't had much time to explore, but I'm enjoying the crit build. My goal is to develop the most DPS, of course. I don't really know the logistics of the game enough to know if armor penetrating will be effective on all mobs.
  • derresshderressh Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    The problem is that stacking crit has much better synergy with the CW feats than armor pen.

    As far as I know, no feat effects armor pen. So all you're getting is the %.

    As far as crit goes, you're getting the % crit. But you can also go into the Renegade Paragon tree, which has feats that increase the % chance, increase AP gain, add a % chance to grant combat advantage toward that mob for the entire team, and increase crit severity as a result of that combat advantage (or combat advantage damage in general).

    I can't really see armor pen holding a candle to crit unless the endgame gear doesn't have any viable crit bonuses, and instead has armor pen. In which case I'll probably stack armor pen/power and go with the Thaumaturge tree...maybe. That MM buff at the end of Renegade is too sexy though.
  • theblueshepherdtheblueshepherd Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Yeah I am still debating this as well... So much could change.
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  • losbin68losbin68 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 79
    edited April 2013
    crit sucks one or 2 % for 300 points. Power and and regen all the way. At 50 my cw was always first or second in dps by playing my role as controlling the mobs and not as a cw out just for dps. But the ? you have to ask is are you a CW what is your role in the party? Controlling mobs in fights tends to help the party more than trying to hit high Dps. If you play your role as an control wizard you will see how much more dps you get. CW have it in their roll to do good dps but only if they play their role.
  • losbin68losbin68 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 79
    edited April 2013
    neora999 wrote: »
    I haven't had much time to explore, but I'm enjoying the crit build. My goal is to develop the most DPS, of course. I don't really know the logistics of the game enough to know if armor penetrating will be effective on all mobs.

    then why play a control wizard? Are you helping your party more by focusing on dps and not helping control the mobs?
  • derresshderressh Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    losbin68 wrote: »
    crit sucks one or 2 % for 300 points. Power and and regen all the way. At 50 my cw was always first or second in dps by playing my role as controlling the mobs and not as a cw out just for dps. But the ? you have to ask is are you a CW what is your role in the party? Controlling mobs in fights tends to help the party more than trying to hit high Dps. If you play your role as an control wizard you will see how much more dps you get. CW have it in their roll to do good dps but only if they play their role.

    By going down the Renegade tree, having high crit helps your team immensely. Building faster AP for Arcane Singularity, and granting combat advantage to your entire team. Plus the final feat for Renegade is literally just a support add-on for Magic Missile.

    You simply have to understand the balance between damage and control. I had 30% crit rate at level 41, but was locking down mobs better than most other CWs I ran across, simply because I knew how to use my skills better than they did.
  • losbin68losbin68 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 79
    edited April 2013
    all i know is when i am in a party with another cw with that build they do real good when casting MM but very poor on controlling mobs but that was at 50. I would really like to see that 30% because i tried every feat that added to crit and never got it that hi.
  • derresshderressh Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    losbin68 wrote: »
    all i know is when i am in a party with another cw with that build they do real good when casting MM but very poor on controlling mobs but that was at 50. I would really like to see that 30% because i tried every feat that added to crit and never got it that hi.

    Unfortunately, I don't have any screenshots saved of my character window. But I focused almost all of my stats on crit. 20 charisma at the end, all the crit feats, and I believe I had roughly 1.3k crit rating.

    They most likely did poorly on controlling mobs because their focus was on doing damage. I generally focus on controlling, and just let the damage and crits come to me (I will admit I had Sudden Storm hotkeyed, but that was mostly for soloing).
  • belaz50belaz50 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    losbin68 wrote: »
    then why play a control wizard? Are you helping your party more by focusing on dps and not helping control the mobs?

    If they would give us a dps choice for wizard I am betting most wouldn't choose the control wizard.

    Until they do, us wizards will have to try and make this guy into what we want to play it seems.
  • zurkhonzurkhon Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 390 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2013
    belaz50 wrote: »
    If they would give us a dps choice for wizard I am betting most wouldn't choose the control wizard.

    Until they do, us wizards will have to try and make this guy into what we want to play it seems.

    Ha my thoughts exactly.

    No matter what CW is intended to do there are many gamers now-a-days that just want to roll face and do and much DPS as they can. We can see that with the whole GWF debacle. This can also be attributed in part to the addition of PvP.

    They should have chosen to start with:

    one Leader
    one Defender
    one Controller
    and
    three strikers (one for each of the holy trinity of d&d)
    Wizard Striker, Rogue Striker and Fighter Striker

    This would have given the PvP players who just want to slap people around some choice.

    And basically it would have meant one additional class... wizard striker. Then convert GWF to a pure striker and you would have three strikers to choose from for PvP purposes.

    But at this point it basically is what it is.
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    ― R.A. Salvatore
  • losbin68losbin68 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 79
    edited April 2013
    belaz50 wrote: »
    If they would give us a dps choice for wizard I am betting most wouldn't choose the control wizard.

    Until they do, us wizards will have to try and make this guy into what we want to play it seems.

    The warlock is coming
  • losbin68losbin68 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 79
    edited April 2013
    belaz50 wrote: »
    If they would give us a dps choice for wizard I am betting most wouldn't choose the control wizard.

    Until they do, us wizards will have to try and make this guy into what we want to play it seems.

    if you would play a control wizard in its role you will have no problem doing good damage. so look at all those control aoes and what spell do you use in your tab key?
  • belaz50belaz50 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I get it, the control wizard excels at control. You really can't be surprised when folks try and build them dps especially when they put a dps tree in for the class. Granted the Thamaturge doesnt look that impressive, but it is still there and will draw those who want to nuke things to it.

    This is how those wizards will play until the warlock comes out, if that is indeed the wizard striker class.

    Instead of bashing on them for trying to make the control wizard into more of a dps role, why not try and set up a spec that isn't utter garbage and see how that plays out?
  • losbin68losbin68 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 79
    edited April 2013
    no you cant they build it dps and they still can not out dps a control wizzard that plays his role. i respect 6 times on my 50 cw and the best dps came from playing as a control wizzard.
  • licourtrix1licourtrix1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 232 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2013
    The dps amount isn't my concern, my CW did excellent damage while controlling mobs, using time stop (aoe stun), entangling force and chill strike, with ray of enfeeblement tabbed. I was simply wondering whether the constant damage increase of armor pen. was more effective dps than burst crit damage. Will likely stack crit anyways because of the obvious bonus to ap and group combat through feats, and armor pen second to maximize damage as much as possible.
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  • glaurungthefirstglaurungthefirst Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    These are great posts...if my group is fighting lets say the green dragon and huge swaths of the ground aredead zones and the adds are flowing in like water what should the CW be doing assuming their role is CC and who should they be targetting?
  • licourtrix1licourtrix1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 232 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2013
    a CW excels at single target control, if there is a group of mobs that need controlling, the best option would be for the CW to control the 2nd highest priority target, while the others take out the smaller adds and main target, then help finish off the controlled target. Rarely works that way though, as most people just smack whats near them.
    How much do clothes cost in the Matrix?
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