I know by default most will go for a Halfling based off the game recommendation. I realise they most likely have the highest chance of survivability solo for their deflection capability, but if I'm focused solely on end game DPS, I'm curious as to whether anyone has worked out the theory crafting of it all.
Currently on paper I'm sold with an Half-Orc with ideal stats and the 5% bonus to crit damage - stack Power gear and those should see better numbers than the Wood Elf missing the +2 str but gaining the 1% crit chance. With stacked Power gear that 1% crit chance damage .v. sustained 5% crit bonus damage would most likely not outdo it, correct?
Well I can't provide a specific answer to your question as I play differently - I choose the character that looks the coolest in my eyes and that's the Tiefling race. I'm a bit disappointed with the look of the rest of the characters - I like cool features like horns and tails etc, things that make my character look different from the rest.
This is taken from the main site - character description.
"Thus, many tieflings have come to rely on cunning and guile in order to survive, making them excellent Rogues. Their infernal heritage also allows them a predisposition towards magic and many tieflings become powerful Wizards."
虎穴に入らずんば虎子を得ず。If you do not enter the tiger's cave, you will not catch its cub.
As far as pure DPS goes, I'm with you on the Half-orc, at least on paper. I tried one in BW4 and it was great fun.
I obviously wasn't playing it quite right, though. I got as far as the Orc Assault (or whatever it's actually called) and The Clock Tower group events and I did well in the Orc Assault, topping damage and kills, but came almost bottom in The Clock Tower. I don't think I was running fast enough to get to all the mobs first!
Oh, and Halflings don't get +2 Str. They get either Chr or Con. Apparently, Chr gives a rogue better deflection and more Combat Advantage bonus. This will push their DPS up a bit give they get +2 to it. I don't know how much DPS Combat Advantage would give you, but to me the half-orc still has it in terms of DPS.
While up front you loose 2 stat points, the three feat points allow you to pick both +20% stealth duration, AND +9% to your at wills when an enemy is not attacking you.
It would be close with the half orc with a constant 2% damage through strength, and the 5% crit severity.
I'll be rolling a menzo renegade at launch. Given drow have a natural bonus to dex and cha, I will probably max those two stats because that's the hand i'm dealt.
My experience in BWE4 was that I wanted as much action points as possible, mostly for the whirlwind daily to clear aoe content, and then lurkers assault on bosses. Those two abilities are massive spikes in DPS and I want them as much as possible.
Later on, if it becomes obvious that dex and str is the way to go, I'll just respec.
Stealth duration is a waste of points, 5 points for an extra second? It won't help you, especially not with the current changes to stealth. And not with the tools rogues get to re-enter stealth.
Half-Orc is the best... My level 30 character was sitting at 30% crit and 80% crit damage. And the run speed boost/racial is handy for a melee character.
STR > CHA btw... STR applies to all damage, CHA will only apply to when you're flanking an enemy or in stealth. So naturally your STR bonus is going to apply in all situations.
As for topping the DPS meters you just have to play like a *******... Hrm... Like a child born out of wedlock... Kill the squishies first, take out the adds, screw the GWF, then after everything has been destroyed by your daggers focus on what's left of the bigger guys. Why? Because your damage done is relative to your party, if you kill everything before they have a chance to touch it, you're taking down their potential DPS.... Oh and then rub it in their faces.
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grapeyouMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 30Arc User
edited April 2013
why wasnt the 3 feat points from human taken into consideration?
Firstly I didn't think halfling got +2 str at all....may be wrong
secondly I work it out to be half orc if you can get to around 50% crit , which you should be able to easy.
I did run a lvl 50 halfling TR and it was great but when it goes live I will be going HO
I worked out that 1 str = .9% ( or close enough ) dmg
1 dex = 1.6% crit
from a dmg point of view I worked out that the diff between HO and teifling base stats was +2 str +dex which = 1.8% dmg and 3.2% crit constantly , just looking at that dmg buff 5% for under 50% you would halve that to get the average for the full kill so 2.5% making it 0.7% diff, now factor in that 3.2 crit and the 5% crit sev and if you cant beat 0.7% dmg gain from that I will be amazed. I know that char adds to the dmg and I didnt work out the gain on that so I cant comment but on paper I cant see it out doing the orc.
so short version orc seems to be it from a purely numbers point of view , for flavour pretty much any of the named races in the OP would be considered typical.
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prunetracyMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
I'll agree that Half-Orc is technically the best. But I'll also assert that the difference between races is very small, so you are free to play whatever you want.
But yeah, if mix-maxing is important to you, I think Half-Orc is your best bet.
STR > CHA btw... STR applies to all damage, CHA will only apply to when you're flanking an enemy or in stealth. So naturally your STR bonus is going to apply in all situations.
So for group content, you should almost always be flanking or in stealth...
So for group content, you should almost always be flanking or in stealth...
The main issue with your arguement is the words "Should" and "Almost"
whereas with strength you can replace those words with "Guarenteed" and "Always"
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prunetracyMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
Technically, we don't know how strength bonuses stack with combat advantages bonuses and charisma. If it's done so that Charisma is better when you're in combat advantage, there is a point where your combat advantage uptime will make Charisma better than Strength. That specific point will depend on how the formula works.
Technically, we don't know how strength bonuses stack with combat advantages bonuses and charisma. If it's done so that Charisma is better when you're in combat advantage, there is a point where your combat advantage uptime will make Charisma better than Strength. That specific point will depend on how the formula works.
Exactly... which is why I avoided words like "guaranteed" and "always," unlike themangroth, who is ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE that strength is better. I plan on going dex/cha because I will play a drow. We need people to test out both specs to do any good analysis. And if strength turns out to be better, I will respec.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
I'll agree that Half-Orc is technically the best. But I'll also assert that the difference between races is very small, so you are free to play whatever you want.
But yeah, if mix-maxing is important to you, I think Half-Orc is your best bet.
I think Tiefling has a pretty good chance at it, but Half-Orc looks to me like the best dependable DPS build as well. The increase to damage when targets are low on health from Tiefling is very substantial tho. But, as he said, unless you're an extreme min-maxer, the differences in races are subtle enough to be overcome both by good gameplay and gear, so the choice is ultimately much more cosmetic than anything else.
Yeah I'm surprised so many people are overlooking the bonus dmg under 50% hp from Tiefling. That seems
super powerful to me but /shrug.
It's a toss up for be between Half Orc and Tiefling, for that exact reason. I'd say if you're going for a power > cit build, Tiefling wins. If you're going for a crit > power build, Orc wins... however IIRC there's severe diminishing returns for going crit over power.
I know by default most will go for a Halfling based off the game recommendation. I realise they most likely have the highest chance of survivability solo for their deflection capability, but if I'm focused solely on end game DPS, I'm curious as to whether anyone has worked out the theory crafting of it all.
Currently on paper I'm sold with an Half-Orc with ideal stats and the 5% bonus to crit damage - stack Power gear and those should see better numbers than the Wood Elf missing the +2 str but gaining the 1% crit chance. With stacked Power gear that 1% crit chance damage .v. sustained 5% crit bonus damage would most likely not outdo it, correct?
Thoughts?
None of the above. Go Tiefling.
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prunetracyMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
Tiefling's bonus under 50% is just 5%, right? So at best it's a 2.5% overall damage boost. Aside from that, they get +2 CHA, but not DEX or STR.
Half-Orc gives: +2 STR, +2 DEX for +2% all damage, +2% crit chance. Add in the extra crit damage, and I think as far as pure numbers go, Half-Orc wins out.
Again, it's close, and you can play what you want.
Is there any crit cap? i wonder how much dex you can have until you see dim returns in crit chance, and if it in that case is better going charisma.
Dex gives Critical Chance, Area of Effect damage resistance, Deflection chance i think.
Is there any crit cap? i wonder how much dex you can have until you see dim returns in crit chance, and if it in that case is better going charisma.
Dex gives Critical Chance, Area of Effect damage resistance, Deflection chance i think.
There's almost certainly a soft cap, but I don't have the numbers on where it begins to take effect. Crit chance is also heavily modified by gear as well, not just DEX, so it gets weird.
prunetracyMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
Crit hard caps usually only come into play when attacks use a hit table. In WoW, for example, a boss has a chance to parry and dodge, and your attacks can miss or glance. What's left is hits and crits. If crits take up the rest of the table, you've hit the crit cap.
A soft cap applies when you temporarily buff your crit chance, or when certain abilities have higher crit chances than others. Lashing Blade's Stealth effect is the only ability I can think of where this comes into play.
So in Neverwinter, since there are no hit tables, unless there is a coded cap somewhere, you could theoretically get your crit up to 100%, though I doubt the gear will allow it.
Isn't the Drow fairy fire meant to reduce the amount of armor of their targets? And if so, wouldn't this be a decent dps boost not only for you, but for your whole party?
Also cha gives your companion more stats or benefits from stats (something along the lines) and unless they are fully useless at higher levels, that could be a benefit for going CHA as well.
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prunetracyMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Isn't the Drow fairy fire meant to reduce the amount of armor of their targets? And if so, wouldn't this be a decent dps boost not only for you, but for your whole party?
Also cha gives your companion more stats or benefits from stats (something along the lines) and unless they are fully useless at higher levels, that could be a benefit for going CHA as well.
Until numbers are available for how much armor is reduced, we can't quantify the Drow racial. However, I suspect it's a really small amount, like 1%. That would keep it in line with the DPS advantages that the other races have.
Comments
This is taken from the main site - character description.
"Thus, many tieflings have come to rely on cunning and guile in order to survive, making them excellent Rogues. Their infernal heritage also allows them a predisposition towards magic and many tieflings become powerful Wizards."
I obviously wasn't playing it quite right, though. I got as far as the Orc Assault (or whatever it's actually called) and The Clock Tower group events and I did well in the Orc Assault, topping damage and kills, but came almost bottom in The Clock Tower. I don't think I was running fast enough to get to all the mobs first!
Oh, and Halflings don't get +2 Str. They get either Chr or Con. Apparently, Chr gives a rogue better deflection and more Combat Advantage bonus. This will push their DPS up a bit give they get +2 to it. I don't know how much DPS Combat Advantage would give you, but to me the half-orc still has it in terms of DPS.
While up front you loose 2 stat points, the three feat points allow you to pick both +20% stealth duration, AND +9% to your at wills when an enemy is not attacking you.
It would be close with the half orc with a constant 2% damage through strength, and the 5% crit severity.
My experience in BWE4 was that I wanted as much action points as possible, mostly for the whirlwind daily to clear aoe content, and then lurkers assault on bosses. Those two abilities are massive spikes in DPS and I want them as much as possible.
Later on, if it becomes obvious that dex and str is the way to go, I'll just respec.
Half-Orc is the best... My level 30 character was sitting at 30% crit and 80% crit damage. And the run speed boost/racial is handy for a melee character.
STR > CHA btw... STR applies to all damage, CHA will only apply to when you're flanking an enemy or in stealth. So naturally your STR bonus is going to apply in all situations.
As for topping the DPS meters you just have to play like a *******... Hrm... Like a child born out of wedlock... Kill the squishies first, take out the adds, screw the GWF, then after everything has been destroyed by your daggers focus on what's left of the bigger guys. Why? Because your damage done is relative to your party, if you kill everything before they have a chance to touch it, you're taking down their potential DPS.... Oh and then rub it in their faces.
secondly I work it out to be half orc if you can get to around 50% crit , which you should be able to easy.
I did run a lvl 50 halfling TR and it was great but when it goes live I will be going HO
I worked out that 1 str = .9% ( or close enough ) dmg
1 dex = 1.6% crit
from a dmg point of view I worked out that the diff between HO and teifling base stats was +2 str +dex which = 1.8% dmg and 3.2% crit constantly , just looking at that dmg buff 5% for under 50% you would halve that to get the average for the full kill so 2.5% making it 0.7% diff, now factor in that 3.2 crit and the 5% crit sev and if you cant beat 0.7% dmg gain from that I will be amazed. I know that char adds to the dmg and I didnt work out the gain on that so I cant comment but on paper I cant see it out doing the orc.
so short version orc seems to be it from a purely numbers point of view , for flavour pretty much any of the named races in the OP would be considered typical.
But yeah, if mix-maxing is important to you, I think Half-Orc is your best bet.
So for group content, you should almost always be flanking or in stealth...
The main issue with your arguement is the words "Should" and "Almost"
whereas with strength you can replace those words with "Guarenteed" and "Always"
Exactly... which is why I avoided words like "guaranteed" and "always," unlike themangroth, who is ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE that strength is better. I plan on going dex/cha because I will play a drow. We need people to test out both specs to do any good analysis. And if strength turns out to be better, I will respec.
I think Tiefling has a pretty good chance at it, but Half-Orc looks to me like the best dependable DPS build as well. The increase to damage when targets are low on health from Tiefling is very substantial tho. But, as he said, unless you're an extreme min-maxer, the differences in races are subtle enough to be overcome both by good gameplay and gear, so the choice is ultimately much more cosmetic than anything else.
It's a toss up for be between Half Orc and Tiefling, for that exact reason. I'd say if you're going for a power > cit build, Tiefling wins. If you're going for a crit > power build, Orc wins... however IIRC there's severe diminishing returns for going crit over power.
None of the above. Go Tiefling.
Half-Orc gives: +2 STR, +2 DEX for +2% all damage, +2% crit chance. Add in the extra crit damage, and I think as far as pure numbers go, Half-Orc wins out.
Again, it's close, and you can play what you want.
Dex gives Critical Chance, Area of Effect damage resistance, Deflection chance i think.
There's almost certainly a soft cap, but I don't have the numbers on where it begins to take effect. Crit chance is also heavily modified by gear as well, not just DEX, so it gets weird.
A soft cap applies when you temporarily buff your crit chance, or when certain abilities have higher crit chances than others. Lashing Blade's Stealth effect is the only ability I can think of where this comes into play.
So in Neverwinter, since there are no hit tables, unless there is a coded cap somewhere, you could theoretically get your crit up to 100%, though I doubt the gear will allow it.
Also cha gives your companion more stats or benefits from stats (something along the lines) and unless they are fully useless at higher levels, that could be a benefit for going CHA as well.
Until numbers are available for how much armor is reduced, we can't quantify the Drow racial. However, I suspect it's a really small amount, like 1%. That would keep it in line with the DPS advantages that the other races have.