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BW4 TR PvP footage
strawbyx
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 43
Full length games
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ojdd13XAKw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y65eH3wfaRc
Some team fights, mostly 1v1s or 1v2-3s
Skill list
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iftu3aLOMas
Random Fight
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OuGUIqn40Q
Have to say as a whole damage isn't (currently) an issue, but with the decrease/nerf in damage, it does highlight a rather important factor - hit registry, Less damage means each hit becomes all that more important and Hit registry to put it kindly is unreliable, the number of times I expect dazing strike to go off only to have a target dodge away after the animation ends is rather infuriating, couple this with the apparent(although minute but still glaringly noticeable) activation delay/global cool down on breaking CC's by means of using impossible to catch makes 2 pretty important PvP skills dodgy at times.
Another thing to note, movement is still terrible. While there's great Rag doll mechanics and general environmental physics, Players still "ski" along the ground, which to be honest is just terrible for combat mechanics (Evident in the all the "warping/sliding"). On one hand you have great physics & rag doll on the other you have "skiing" which in no way fits the artistic style or game design (Last I recall we aren't playing tribes). Give characters weight and the feeling of gravity (You already have environmental physics for crying out loud), it needs to feel planted such that each step your character takes feels like a step on solid ground and not ice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ojdd13XAKw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y65eH3wfaRc
Some team fights, mostly 1v1s or 1v2-3s
Skill list
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iftu3aLOMas
Random Fight
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OuGUIqn40Q
Have to say as a whole damage isn't (currently) an issue, but with the decrease/nerf in damage, it does highlight a rather important factor - hit registry, Less damage means each hit becomes all that more important and Hit registry to put it kindly is unreliable, the number of times I expect dazing strike to go off only to have a target dodge away after the animation ends is rather infuriating, couple this with the apparent(although minute but still glaringly noticeable) activation delay/global cool down on breaking CC's by means of using impossible to catch makes 2 pretty important PvP skills dodgy at times.
Another thing to note, movement is still terrible. While there's great Rag doll mechanics and general environmental physics, Players still "ski" along the ground, which to be honest is just terrible for combat mechanics (Evident in the all the "warping/sliding"). On one hand you have great physics & rag doll on the other you have "skiing" which in no way fits the artistic style or game design (Last I recall we aren't playing tribes). Give characters weight and the feeling of gravity (You already have environmental physics for crying out loud), it needs to feel planted such that each step your character takes feels like a step on solid ground and not ice.
Post edited by strawbyx on
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You know whats funnier? that a good CW will destroy a TR
A good TR can also destroy a CW xD. It all comes down to the skill of the player.
Having fought from both perspectives, it is kind of a wash. In all honesty, both classes can simply leave the fight if they get in a bind. The CW has much less forgiveness from mistakes though.
Strawbyrx, how did you approach the CW fight when going against a skilled one? I saw you fought one in your vid, but they just stood there and let you wail on them.
As a general rule, Stealth>Dazing Strike>Deft strike>Sly/cloud of steel if out of range (Actually was thinking about this a little bit more, I've used deft strike>stealth>dazing strike more frequently, just so dazing strike actually strikes the target). For obvious reasons, its never as simple as chaining this combo. For CWs it's very hard to define a specific opening sequence let alone the following sequences as situation dictates how I would open (More so for CWs, their numerous CCs leave a lot of room open for different approaches), why I say this ...
Example being, if I initiate combat (ie. I start attacking them when I'm next to them) I fully expect them to CC (push/choke/freeze), I'll always eat the first CC (I rarely try and set up a stealth>Daze combo at the start, it's the most predictable thing a CW will expect and counter with a simple teleport as soon as you get close) but after that it really depends on what the CC was, am I too far? or am I in roll range, too far chances are I'll Deft strike, not so, I'll roll in. Say I Deft strike in, the CW teleports, I'll roll towards him, CW CCs me I pop impossible to catch, he teleports, I roll, if he teleports again, I'll cloud of steel, he stands and fights, I sly till he either CCs me after CC immunity from impossible to catch wears off or he teleports again. At this point if he teleports and Deft is back up, Deft->stealth->Dazing, which should catch him in it -> sly. But again if he does something different or if Deft isn't up, it's hard to say what I would do, heck I might just run even if I feel that there's no way to win.
So you can see it's not simple to say do X/Y/Z to win, sure there are certain rules to follow but situation really dictates response, and by god there are a lot of different possible situations to theory craft every single response. That being sad, having looked at some of the videos of me and others fighting CWs you can definitely structure certain responses or strategies to provoke a certain response -> (I love fighting GWF's they're so predictable & easily tricked)
So apart from the general combo rules, fighting CWs boils down to, making them burn their teleports which lines you up for a stealth->Daze->Deft strike->sly combo. Just getting one set of this Combo on them is pretty devastating. You'll be looking to take off 1/3 to half their HP in this chain. Last but not least cloud of Steel at appropriate times really helps wilting them down to the point where perhaps only one steath->daze->deft combo is required and all you really need to do is deft/cloud for filler damage till they die.
Some good insight here, thanks.
From a CW point of view my management system when fighting a TR is control his stealth and avoid daze. The usual opener against my CW was as you first described, deft-stealth-daze. If you see them coming, it is straight forward to simply blink after the deft which basically screws them since you just controlled their stealth, first daze, and deft. This doesn't mean I would win the fight, just that it started on my terms. The TR has a lot of forgiveness to mistakes, but most classes though in general can simply walk away from a fight, the GF being the weakest at escape.
I can't recall any fights against rogues that didn't blow their stealth early so I'm not sure how I would handle it on the CW. What I mostly saw though was after they blew those first three skills and were getting controlled fairly well is they would simply leave the battle. Usually a smart move, but I liked to see different approaches and conclusions even if I was too lose.
Btw, I noticed a GF doing very well in one of your vids. Makes me happy since that will be the first pvp class I bring up.
surprise factor wins you the fight, an open faced 1vs1 vs a CW is more often than not a bad idea especially if there's the risk of other enemies coming up at you while you do the teleport-roll dance...
That is probably the most prudent course of action. Strawbyx has acquired a particular set of skills though that allows him to break the norm, I'll just call him Liam from now on. :cool:
Having fought the battle between the two classes from both POVs, it is just an interesting match up. Titan vs Titan type of thing.
Posted that in another topic but got flamed by control wizards
Honestly, it shouldn't be a 100% guaranteed hit. It should take some thought. The same can be said about the GWF takedown which is kind of a guaranteed prone on a short CD and even if you miss with it, it only takes a few seconds for it to be back up since it was designed that way.
Watching Strawbyx vids, he actually had a high hit percentage with it since he properly timed it and used stealth to speed it up.
Totally off topic but, in that first video, what horse did you get? It looks really good and I want it. xD
There is the GF I noticed in your vid. Got a sec bro to give me a brief run down of GF in PvP?
I originally planned on grinding one up to the 39 bracket this weekend but got sidetracked on the other classes and didn't get a chance. How effective is threaten rush? Does it have a decent range? Did you feel like you could get decent up time on targets that were actively trying to evade?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7ZmBCrUR2o
*I'll be reuploading it later when I have time to fast forward portions of the video with absolutely no action
You believe that it is your skill and the inepetitude of the other players that allows you to dominate. Two on one You take them down. Three on one you escape. One on one you dominate. They run u range, they have to be rooted in place to cast you destroy them. Two on one vs CW you take them both down.
Yes it is your skill. Maybe not. Lol the class is OP and you silly fools know it too.
Itis whats been seen on mmo forums for god knows how long when a game is unbalanced. Come back and join us in reality while we all attempt to find balance in this game and for the people who want to play another class without being a punching bag in pvp. Sigh.
I do believe there are some balance issues going on, not as major as you make it out to be though. Regardless, if you care to be objective, you have to admit their are differences in skill between players in every class. Strawbyx is on the upper end of the spectrum through learning class mechanics and experience. This is a huge advantage when a game is new because there will be a lot of opponents that do not have a complete understanding of their own class let alone the other classes.
So when you see someone early in a games life put out videos performing well, you can learn a lot from them. You can also see their approach to fights and learn to counter. For example, you can see how important it is too avoid daze and learn the cooldowns of important abilities. Once players get a better understanding a more objective look at balance can be achieved.
I would agree with you but, no sense in us both being wrong. If you paid attention to the 3v2 I was the GF with Strawbx, the other team had a TR, GWF and GF. The two of us destroyed those 3 that had the same classes and one additional class. You really should pay attention before you make comments that make you look like you know absolutely nothing about what you are talking about, which in this case you don't.
No where have I claimed to be "skilled" nor claim to be, you be the judge of that. In all honesty can you tell me that is no difference between the way the different CWs played (in particular video #1 and #3). How one just sat there and died, while the other did not and pretty much gave me a run for money (Again no offense to said players, chances are they were just finding their feet), do you not consider that as a difference in "skill" level, or rather their knowledge of their class and PvP in general?.
That said, lets ignore the arbitrary nature of "skill" and focus on an objective analysis on the powers used that you so hastily have determined to be overpowered based on what I would say are sweeping generalisations.
These certainly were the outcomes that you have based your judgements on, but how were they obtained, and more specifically what facilitated said outcomes. These questions give or take credibility from any outcome and the subsequent judgements you make from them. Think of it if you will as a scientific experiment, the conclusions drawn from an experiment only holds any merit on the strength of how an experiment was conducted and the variables it considered and accounted/negated/neutralised.
So, lets begin.
Have you considered these factors:
1) Actual level of opponent relative to the attacker. (It matters a lot for stat/damage scaling in "low level" pvp)
2) Gear of opponent relative to the attacker. (Again it matters for scaling purposes)
3) Feat points into relevant damage or defensive feats. (Which can affect the numbers you see)
4) Usage of relevant powers to mitigate damage. (Roll/damage reduction)
Last but not least, basing a judgement on the relative "power" of the powers on "non max level" usage is rather pointless as we do not have access to the actual formula of each individual power and do not know how they scale in relation to each other at lvl60.
If you are basing your judgements solely on the videos I have posted, then I am sorry to say, my videos are in no way "scientifically" sound in terms of evaluating a TR and its powers in relation to the other classes. My videos are uploaded for the same reason I watch other peoples videos not so much just for the egotistical value (I admit just a little bit), but mostly (when watching others) to see what powers/tactics work or for that matter don't and perhaps to see what is trending. In addition to that, feedback is always welcomed, listening to what others have to say can and often does lead to improvements or the creation/innovation of new tactics/ideas/combinations.
Just so you know in Cognitive psychology/Human memory, there are 3 stages of "skill" learning, 1)Cognitive->2)Associative->3)Autonomous, of which receiving feedback is vital in moving from the associative to autonomous stage.
But I digress.
Your assumption that I am some how hiding or silent on the notion that a TR is "overpowered" because I would not like to see it changed is unfounded. I am silent for the simple reason that I know at this moment in time, making such a statement is meaningless as the evidence required to support or refute it is not available (to me that is, perhaps the Devs do have such evidence).
Lastly (for real this time), I challenge you instead of succumbing to the fallacy of confirmation bias, to seek out evidence that falsifies your hypothesis (dis-confirming the consequent), and if there are none, this would make your argument/hypothesis that TR's are "overpowered" logical and well backed, thus believable one. But until then, your argument of TR's being "overpowered" holds no merit in reality.
You should though. You're actually pretty good.
Was one of the Zen "green" horse mounts (Don't remember the name, but you can select through the different mounts and the picture associated with it will change according to its appearance), was testing if the mount was really 70% as the description on the Zen store listed it as being so (being "green" it should be 40%), alas it wasn't 70% and was indeed 40%.
First let me say that your post on the other thread holds merit. Skills PVE vs PVP should be balanced and that really seems to be the major problem and not only in this MMO.
I don't feel you have posted these videos for a scientific examination. If you had you would have posted your last video in the "Fix the GWF" thread. But it is here to show the relative power of your skill or class or whatever you feel your wall of text is trying to justify.
I agree the end game will be where we see the difference. Only time will tell.