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State of the CW in CBW4 - New Skill System
th3mod
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 43
Hey guys, I wanted to give quick feedback about the current state of the CW after somewhat huge changes! Feel free to join in and add any comment. I hope Cryptic reviews this and listens to the community as they did before 
First of all, these changes made me more unhappy than happy. Let's start with the skill system rework. I do think that the old system needed some changes, since it was kind of stupid to get the same power 3 times. However I liked the idea that I got everything, and I was free to choose what to use and when! Which is quite important for the CW since sadly our controll abilities are nonsence when fighting Instance Bosses (immune to CC). Therefore I liked to change my skills constantly before some fights, depending what I would need.
This new system really messes up the freedom to choose/customize for me. Yes you can put points into skills you want to use, but you also have to lvl up skill you will never ever use (like Opressive Force, I think it's a horrible ability and I never use it, however it automatically gets one point, which is then gone from my pool of 60 points I can spend, if I recall correctly). This makes the skilltree kind of forced in some way. Also you get 4 class features until lvl 10 but only 3 encounters? What's that about? There is only 2 spots for Class Features and 4 for Encounters, furthermore class features only really depend later on when you do decent damage and those 1-5% damage multipliers count. I can not use a lot of my fun skill which I was able to use with the old system, where is Icy Terrain? Ice Knife? (my one and only nice single target dps Daily, awsome for any Intance Boss) now I get them at lvl 30 and 40?! I was so happy that this game wasn't like WoW or LotRO where you had to wait for certain levels to get one awsome skill. Here you could use it early on, altho it wasn't that powerfull. I love PvP and I always used Ice Knife + Ice Storm in lvl 10-20 PvP, this way I had nice single target + aoe Dailies available at my choice! Now it's all screwed up and I only have 3 AOE Dailies to choose from....in what way does this let me customize my character?
Also what I would like to add, a lot of people dont know what will be good for lategame, it's all guessing and with another freaking tree where you have to spend AD to respec? Come on Cryptic...
I would like to kindly ask you to review the new Skill System and make some tweaks, so it can be what it is ment to be. A nice way to customize your character further, and still beeing able to choose freely what to use and when to use it! I am liked the Idea of the CW beeing able to switch from CC/Chill to DMG/Arcane types, why make a class able to use both when you can only specialies on one?
This new skill system also just adds to the current problem that CW have. Awsome controll skills which are unusable against Intance Bosses, and the one skill which did decent enough dps was Ice Knife taken away. This is only my opinion about the issue and it refers to lower level play, and the idea of beeing able to enjoy the game at lower levels, not having to wait until someone is lvl 60.
This actually got quite long, apologies. Feel free to add any comments, however notice that this is just my opinion from playing 3 closed beta weekends, most likely everyone will have other ways to think about this.
Kind regards
Danny
TLDR; overall not very happy with the new skill system, really needs some tweaks, where is my Ice Knife? QQ
First of all, these changes made me more unhappy than happy. Let's start with the skill system rework. I do think that the old system needed some changes, since it was kind of stupid to get the same power 3 times. However I liked the idea that I got everything, and I was free to choose what to use and when! Which is quite important for the CW since sadly our controll abilities are nonsence when fighting Instance Bosses (immune to CC). Therefore I liked to change my skills constantly before some fights, depending what I would need.
This new system really messes up the freedom to choose/customize for me. Yes you can put points into skills you want to use, but you also have to lvl up skill you will never ever use (like Opressive Force, I think it's a horrible ability and I never use it, however it automatically gets one point, which is then gone from my pool of 60 points I can spend, if I recall correctly). This makes the skilltree kind of forced in some way. Also you get 4 class features until lvl 10 but only 3 encounters? What's that about? There is only 2 spots for Class Features and 4 for Encounters, furthermore class features only really depend later on when you do decent damage and those 1-5% damage multipliers count. I can not use a lot of my fun skill which I was able to use with the old system, where is Icy Terrain? Ice Knife? (my one and only nice single target dps Daily, awsome for any Intance Boss) now I get them at lvl 30 and 40?! I was so happy that this game wasn't like WoW or LotRO where you had to wait for certain levels to get one awsome skill. Here you could use it early on, altho it wasn't that powerfull. I love PvP and I always used Ice Knife + Ice Storm in lvl 10-20 PvP, this way I had nice single target + aoe Dailies available at my choice! Now it's all screwed up and I only have 3 AOE Dailies to choose from....in what way does this let me customize my character?
Also what I would like to add, a lot of people dont know what will be good for lategame, it's all guessing and with another freaking tree where you have to spend AD to respec? Come on Cryptic...
I would like to kindly ask you to review the new Skill System and make some tweaks, so it can be what it is ment to be. A nice way to customize your character further, and still beeing able to choose freely what to use and when to use it! I am liked the Idea of the CW beeing able to switch from CC/Chill to DMG/Arcane types, why make a class able to use both when you can only specialies on one?
This new skill system also just adds to the current problem that CW have. Awsome controll skills which are unusable against Intance Bosses, and the one skill which did decent enough dps was Ice Knife taken away. This is only my opinion about the issue and it refers to lower level play, and the idea of beeing able to enjoy the game at lower levels, not having to wait until someone is lvl 60.
This actually got quite long, apologies. Feel free to add any comments, however notice that this is just my opinion from playing 3 closed beta weekends, most likely everyone will have other ways to think about this.
Kind regards
Danny
TLDR; overall not very happy with the new skill system, really needs some tweaks, where is my Ice Knife? QQ
Post edited by th3mod on
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They should be working on fixing all the bugs instead of making changes that will need to be redone.
Snewfie lvl 27 CW
An example of a modified Wizard tree:
Base: Magic Missile, Ray of Frost, Chill Strike, Oppressive Force, Orb of Imposition
5 pt: Conduit of Ice, Entangling Force, Repel
10 pt: Arcane Singularity, Ice Storm, Ice Knife
15 pt: Chilling Cloud, Arcane Presence, Chilling Presence, Ray of Enfeeblement
20 pt: Icy Terrain, Shield, Evocation (+ all skills have rank 3 available)
30 pt: Storm Blast, Steal Time, Storm Fury
35 pt: Sudden Storm, Storm Spell, Icy Rays,
40 pt: Shard of the Endless Avalanche, Maelstrom of Chaos, Eye of the Storm
The basic idea here is to shift power availability earlier, so there's more options while leveling up. Don't get too hung up on the specific spell order, it's more meant to serve as an example of how power distribution could work. By making more choices available earlier, there's less opportunity for feeling forced into investing into powers you don't want, and more opportunity for hand-picking the powers you really want.
The system as it is would work fantastic if there were more powers to choose from. That may come down the road, but for now, I think it will feel better if there are more choices earlier in the progression.
Oh, I also think this should be coupled with a free respec on your last spent point. This way you could spend one point to try a power out, and switch to a new one if you don't like it. Your choice will only become locked when you spend the NEXT point, so you'll have a whole level to experiment.
Don't worry, GWF feels REALLY worse, so CW is not that bad. I was still able to solo-clean quest instances. Didn't try any dungeons though, cause they are always empty again
CW is very powerful and really well balanced (only the Oppressor feat tree is lacking a bit). It's also the most rewarding class with the steepest learning curve.
And I'd never go to a dungeon without one.
This *IS* a "beta test". ~ahem~ What do you suppose they are doing? hahahah
Nothing is final, tweaks are still being made. Will the requested tweaks of changes happen? Perhaps or perhaps not. I just find the above comment rather, ummm.. redundant and funny.
Well, it makes some sense. We were complaining the whole BW3 about 'empty dungeons' (when you enter dungeon but only final boss is there), and guess what I see right away when I log in this time :P BUT the feat system is completely changed, yep, they sure took some time to rework it, good work :P
People don't realize the power of control wizard because they don't understand the strong synergy of powers it has. You have to build it carefully for particular powers in focus. And u have to use powers which have synergy. Like "rolling stone" with repel makes a good combo.
Roll everyone with stone. As they get up, push them back. Then blast the stone to damage them again.
Such combos are what define the control wizard and powers which seem useless become staple powers as you experiment with them.
These comments bugged me a bit. When you're in a group during a dungeon boss that's immune to CC, your job is to focus on the adds that spawn and make sure people don't get surrounded. I was also a bit disappointed that some of my favorite skills got bumped up in level so I couldn't use them, but that's just me feeling spoiled from having them before. If I hadn't gotten to play with them during BWE3, it wouldn't have effected me at all.
Other than that, I don't particularly mind the point buy system, but the point you made about the encounters vs class features at level 10 is a very valid point, and I hope they'll change those around a bit (especially since I don't plan on getting Conduit of Ice at all, so I'll be left with 2).
Exactly. There are insane amount of combinations for fun and powerful CW power use. You just have to decide which playstyle you prefer and which powers you want to use. Then choose your feats according to those.
Another examples:
1) conduit of ice (its dmg got buffed) with -15% mitigation from feat and while waiting for a few 'ticks'
2) storm pillar with +10% dmg buff if you hit 2+ targets feat
3) chill strike in tab slot (aoe version) with +20% dmg on targets not affected by chill feat that also stuns main target
Or you can easily combine arcane and cold powers.
1) get arcane presence passive (the one that also gives cold dmg for arcane stacks)
2) entangling force in tab slot that build arcane stacks based on targets near main target (easily can give 4 stacks in an instant)
3) use your favorite cold powers with now buffed dmg
4) refresh arcane stacks with magic missile
Building upon synergy is much more efficient than using 'separate' skill rotations.
I like this idea for power progression for the CW mainly because it gives the CW four encounter powers at level 10. One thing I noticed in this weekend's playtest is that I didn't get access to my fourth encounter power until level 15. This meant that I either couldn't use my tab ability until level 15, or I couldn't use a regular encounter slot until 15. Obviously, I chose to leave one of my regular encounter slots empty. This shouldn't be the case at all. CWs should have 4 encounter powers at level 10 so that they can get the most out of the unique aspect of their class which is 4 encounter abilities instead of 3. I played a Cleric also this weekend. At level 10, I was able to use my tab ability, and I had access to three encounter abilities. However, as I said earlier, my CW didn't have access to his tab ability and three encounter abilities at level 10. This shouldn't be the case.
All they did was rename <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> thats been sittin there the whole time and do a different point distribution system..people asked for MORE on the CW, not a revamp of the same old <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>...which is basically what it is.
I used shield as an AoE localized nuke/knockback, not for damage mitigation. I typically opened up with chill strike in tab, then finished off the weaker bad guys with shield when they got close. It is insta cast if you are already buffed with it so I found it useful for that purpose.
I will say that i think everyone should be given 1 respec token for free, but I also think that with new skills and fixes coming out, free respecs will be available anyways.
If it's like CO/STO, then yea free tokens will be given when major class changes happen. The only issue we will see is if any changes affect ability scores since the tokens do not reset your starting ability scores.
Cheers!
Remember, this is the first Wizard available. They will add skills/spells/etc as the game progresses, and I suspect you will be allowed more leeway to keep from wasting points on things you will never use.
I can also see, them requiring points in prerequisite skills/spells/etc to get later ones. For instance must have Lower Level Ice of equal or less ranks to get a higher level one, etc...
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
1) I feel the Feat system lacks synergy.
Example: Snap Freeze (cold powers do 4-20% more damage on targets NOT afflicted by chill), then Assailing Force, later in the Thaumaturge Path buffs a DoT spell that chills the target.
There are many situations like that, which don't contribute to create an identity for each Paragon path. Simply put, it seems the feats are put there randomly.
2) Many Feats give such ridiculously minor buffs that no one would feel like it affects the character at all.
Example: Energy Recovery gives you a 25% chance of gaining 0.75% extra hit points when you cast a spell that no one would even use (Chilling Cloud)?! It is confusing and useless.
3) Using the same example of the Energy Recovery feat, many of these feats are also NO fun. While plain 1-5% damage buffs are welcome, it feels like just an obligation to fill them because otherwise you would be subpar compared to other Control Wizards' damage.
4) Since the issue came up, I think several spells need better balance. Storm Pillar and Chilling Cloud should be considered as AoE options against Magic Missile, but the latter still deals more overall damage than the others, even against groups of mobs.
Summing up, my main points are Feat Paths need more synergy, identity and they need to have more flavor to be felt as a game changing aspect of the game, not just an extra mechanic where you have to find the decent options among a lot of useless ones.