Tanking and threat

dybound · March 2013

Hi everybody,

I've become a fan of the Guaridan Fighter. The blocking mechanics is enjoyable, and so far it was fun to play.

But... when running a 5-man dungeon I had trouble tanking, because it seems that only the AOE taunt is doing a decent amount of threat (The 1-on-1 skill was ok too).

The "Mark" skill seems rather useless. The marked mob keeps attacking my allies even though they haven't done anything yet. And Stab over the shield also seems to do very little threat (or none at all).

I know it should not be too easy to tank, but it just feels like the GF doesn't have the proper tools to keep aggro at all (just an AoE taunt to force them to attack you for a short amount of time)

Do I miss anything here?

And yes... I'm new to this game, that's why I'm asking for tips

stormhammy · March 2013

1) Mark be useful, especially in a 5 man dungeon. Always try to open a fight with it on the biggest target.
It basically be an instant cast that causes the target to take more damage & more aggro towards you. (Good when you has 5 players hammering said target.)
2) If you be relying only on the AoE taunt for aggro, you be doing it terribly wrong. Use your damage to augment the aggro. (I.E: AoE taunt draws them to you -> back out a bit to make all enemies go in front of you -> Use Shield block + Sword attack = Moar AoE damage = Moar aggro.)

dybound · March 2013

Thanks for the reply, but you're misunderstanding me. I didn't say I only rely on AoE taunt, or that I don't use Mark to open the fight. I was saying that everything besides the AoE taunt feels rather week threat wise.

ranncore · March 2013

Use Lunging Strike to get to the enemy before your group members do, because they are all too often too stupid to properly let the tank establish aggro before closing. Keep a knockdown power ready for when an idiot uses a knockdown power and steals aggro from you, so that you can save his life when the opponents close on him. The AOE taunt works best when opponents are knocked down. Try to get to your opponents first (lunging strike) and turn them away from the party so that other melee are flanking them when they close, because the only person who should be in the monsters swing arc is the guardian fighter - other melee are squishy and will die if they hit. Furthermore melee damage is significantly increased when flanking, but most players would rather just get in the monster's face and start swinging, so it's important for the Guardian Fighter to position the monster so that characters approach it from a flanking position, because they won't take the time themselves to set this up.

stormhammy · March 2013

dybound wrote: »

Thanks for the reply, but you're misunderstanding me. I didn't say I only rely on AoE taunt, or that I don't use Mark to open the fight. I was saying that everything besides the AoE taunt feels rather week threat wise.

Sounds like you need to stack more power & learn how to position mobs. ('-')

ranncore wrote: »

Use Lunging Strike to get to the enemy before your group members do, because they are all too often too stupid to properly let the tank establish aggro before closing.

^('-')
This.
If they don't want to let you establish decent aggro, then they obviously think they can handle tanking.
The only exception be dedicated heal clerics with heal aggro.

Lunging strike -> position yourself a bit behind the mob (so it faces you & your teammates see it's exposed back & so that you block the initial hits) -> AoE stomp -> Shield stab (does AoE + ~60% more damage than shield bash)

Although in the lower dungeons you don't even have to bother with positioning or even blocking correctly.
Just rush head on & mobs die.
(.-.)

maddllama · March 2013

It seemed this way to me that I could not hold aggro properly, but I always topped the damage taken/absorbed meter in skirmishes. That was running with non-guildies. It is very difficult for tanks to keep the aggro off of Rogues and higher-lvl Control Wizards, for sure. The only time in a 5-man I could seem to re-establish hate, regardless of damaging abilities, was my AoE taunt. They would turn and look at me for a few seconds and then turn and start bashing the rogues/wizards again.

And I was pretty much tanking the way that Stormhammy said, as that seemed the best routine. Seemed more like the DPS just wanted to show off how much damage they could do and would start screaming when they pulled aggro. The good ones will learn... the bad ones will learn to live at the campfire.

zaknethyn · March 2013

The few times I grouped, we had a guardian who tried to gather up the mobs and stand there tanking, once he realized we had half the group down by the time he did this, he actually hung in the back and intercepted mobs that made it past the initial wizard/cleric range barrage. As a Control Wizard, I had no trouble "tanking" mobs, I could teleport away, repel, lift, etc to stop the larger attacks as well as chug the occasional potion if needed. It seems this plays more like Guild wars 2 in that everyone can handle most mobs, just the guardian is more efficient at AoE melee damage and soaking up the attacks whereas the rest of us might take more damage, BUT we aren't relying on a limited pool of cleric healing.
In the old school style that is being exemplified in this thread, the tank in front, everyone else behind and carefully avoiding agro, you had a limited healing pool, the mobs had enourmous hit points and were not really soloable. It was only efficient and in many cases doable with having the tank as centerpoint of the fight. However in NWO, I had a main boss on me for most of a fight and had no trouble handling it with the above mentioned tactics.

I raided with an EQ1 and EQ2 rogue/assassin so I am familiar with the "don't get aggro or you die" approach, it just doesn't seem to be the case here. Guardians are more AoE melee with the ability to round up and down the hordes of annoying little mobs easier, not the centerpoint of the fight, at least imho.

Instead of running forward, you could stand back and guard the artillery, since you know exactly where the mobs will be running if you do, and position yourself to intercept.

jezathforum · March 2013

There are trait lines that allow you to establish more aggro also and paragon lines.

meathooks333 · March 2013

First time playing over the weekend, and I only completed through The Cloak Tower. So I understand that my experience is a bit limited. I figure it wouldn't hurt to add my two cents though.

I ran the dungeon at level 16 with the rest of the party at 15. I didn't have much trouble holding threat on trash mobs by opening with Lunging Strike, following with Enforced Threat and Cleave and using Griffon's Wrath on the tougher mobs. The only occasions I would lose aggro is when the other Guardian Fighter in the group would use Enforced Threat. Of course the final boss seems to attack whoever she pleases regardless of Knight's Challenge and Mark, so I focused on picking up the adds as they spawned. So far I see a strong potential for Guardian Fighter as a multi-target tank. If I had more experience I think I would say that they can single-target tank just as well, given their very well defined single-target powers.

The only issue I had at all was survivability. This was a non-issue when I had potions... as a matter of fact it was ridiculous how easily you can survive with them. We had no Devoted Cleric in the group, but luckily I had my companion available when I ran out of potions. I had to sacrifice some threat generation/damage output at that point for movement/blocking and more strategic placement of mobs so that I could survive the fights, but it was doable even under these less than desirable circumstances.

As far as the issue with Control Wizards being able to kite and some confusing that for "tanking". That's a good failsafe if everyone dies and all, but you can't move through content at a good pace that way. Moving mobs are harder to hit, period. This isn't a first person shooter, despite the mouse look targeting. The game is clearly set up with a trinity mechanic built into it: Tank, damage, support. It isn't like Guild Wars 2 if it were the Guardian Fighter wouldn't have threat generating abilities and would have a dodge ability like every other class.

lurkersx · March 2013

In the first dungeons that we had available the little mobs aren't even needed to be tanked, if you get them great, but they die so fast to aoe and don't to much damage. The big ones are the ones you target, with mark and then lunging strike. They should be good on you after that with normal hits as long as no other guardian fighter in group. I hope they do implement a class specification in the dungeon finder.. not having a cleric and/or guardian does make it harder.

meathooks333 · March 2013

@lurkersx, I personally didn't think of the little mobs as a non-threatening enemy in my limited experience. My group was made up entirely of level 15 characters besides myself and they seemed to take some time to burn them down. So at least it's true that entering the dungeon at a lower level can be difficult, especially with only companion heals. But that is an isolated experience.

What does matter is just the fact that a tank is capable of grabbing the mobs, getting them grouped up so that the damage dealing classes can burn them down quickly and efficiently. You can get through the dungeon much quicker and with minimal resources consumption if your group is capable of that.

xarallei · March 2013

Ah maybe the tanks I had in dungeons were just really bad. They seemed really useless and couldn't hold threat for <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Was wondering if the class was just terrible or what. Ran dungeons more easily with an all dps team. O_O

pvthudson · March 2013

Oh God one question and suddenly the pseudo ex WoW tanks have to come out and give their ill gotten crappy tank advice.

This is a F2P game and as such I expect to see a lot of bad tanks. But the advice in this thread is so snarky I dont even know where to begin. Probably from a bunch of Wrath of the Lich King babies too.

fullmetalpope · March 2013

It is not the tanks for the most part. It is X amount of threat we are generating over Y amount of damage the other classes are doing. The ratio that is coded in game currently is set way to low. It needs to be jacked up quite a bit. The attacks from other classes are faster then the guardian attacks, I have played all four classes so far and the guardian attacks slowest by far. That in turn is going to generate less threat then someone else attacking faster doing boat loads of damage like the trickster, wizard and cleric. Like I said, it can be off-set by jacking up the threat on our attacks. And before anyone says anything about the passive threats in the tree, I saw them and picked them up and it was still not enough.

fullmetalpope · March 2013

pvthudson wrote: »

Oh God one question and suddenly the pseudo ex WoW tanks have to come out and give their ill gotten crappy tank advice.

Do you not think that is a pretty stupid thing to say?

cappio88 · March 2013

In low level dungeons using the aoe shout is enough to retake aggro. One you hit high levels i suggest you to use the charge at-will ability. It helped me alot reaching adds over the room who were targetting DPSs or the boss who suddenly jump over someone.
From my personal experience i used Tide of Iron and aoe shout to keep aggro, I haven't found the stab very useful to hold aggro BUT if you all say that is better use it I'll certainly start use it.

the Mark, if you use it at start of combat or not at all looked same to me.

Tanking and threat

Comments