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Why would I join a Guild when Cryptic systems are role-play horrible?
angrysprite
Member Posts: 4,982 Arc User
Serious question, folks. First this is NOT a rant! LOL These are genuine observations/concerns I have with regard to being part of a Guild. If you are among the Guild types who believe strongly in them, I beseech you these points I have. Based on my observations below, the "benefits' aren't as compelling as they could be, I guess. I want to join a guild, I'm just not seeing a huge benefit in it. I know there are guilds who'd love to have me (years of experience in role play among other things - but super rusty on D&D Lore, except for Dragnolance - which is moot in Forgotten Realms!)
Anyway....
STO has "Fleets", CO has "Supergroups" (I think that's what it's called" but in essence they are all just Guilds). In STO there is limited benefit to joining a fleet - but there IS benefit - in CO I haven't seen a single reason to join a group - ever. As for NWO Guilds, it makes a lot more sense for group delves - but perhaps not a lot else.
Don't get me wrong: I know what they are, and why they are there and why people love them. However, why would I really want to join any guild (or fleet or supergroup, etc.) when I see lack of benefit/caveats on the following:
Cryptic instance system does not always make it easy for a specific group (team) members to enter the same instance. e.g.: level 30 player mentoring new level 10 player - wants to help out 10 in his quest, but 30 has already played that quest - no way to re-enter it. (House Quest, not foundry quest).
Group-required "delves" and "skirmish" have a queue that will create ad-hoc groups as necessary - granted these players are not accustomed to tactical teamwork and whatnot, but getting a specific team into the same delve may or may not be as simple - based on the queue system - you get the idea.
As for actual role play (I am a highly-experienced role player as role play goes) - All of Cryptic's systems (STO, CO and yes, NWO) are *horrible* for role play, primarily because the in-game communication system just plain sucks. Sure, you can create and use a custom chat channel, but then you;re all in private chat - passersby will not know what's going on and surely can't just jump-in (which is what makes role play highly dynamic) - but open, zone, or local chat is spammed with garbage, including system messages. The only way to PM anyone (or "tell") is wonky at best (I'm NOT a fan of hack-hack codes like "/tell @johndoe to PM someone with a completely different CHARACTER name, etc.) ...but beyond that the overall role-play "atmosphere" is horribly implemented. Difficult to pass object/items to other players "role-play" style (hand-off directly without using "mail" system or "banks" etc.) No free camera movement (unless you hide the UI entirely) - and even then camera is focussed 100% on your character - you cannot focus on others, etc.
So sure: Guild benefit for ad-hocking group delve ... but for role play? I just don't see very satisfying role play in ANY Cryptic MMO (strictly due to the player-to-player communication system limits and massive limits on anything avatar-related). The real benefit for a guild/fleet/supergroup is the potential *role-play*.
Additionally, many guilds want (some actually require) voice chat, out-of-game participation (their own web forums and extra-curricular activities, etc.) - and in the end - when in-game the guild, group, fleet more or less barely hangs-out together as people are engrossed in leveling-up their own characters. Sure, a member can ask in chat for a "group" assistance to do a delve/mission/fleet-encounter, but other members are already tied-up in the middle of something else, so it's difficult to get that help sometimes. As for scheduled guild/fleet/group events? Usually fail because most people's lives don;t center around the group's ongoings and forget about the scheduled event and become no-shows, so the event is perpetually rescheduled, etc. (I see this a lot in STO. CO groups are basically dead-weight entirely).
I'm not asking anyone to debunk these points or justify them or anything else.
I actually like the idea of camaraderie and teams and all that stuff and I have a long devoted love to role-play - and I mean *serious* role play. Very serious role-play and maybe that's why I am disillusioned at the very possibility of decent role-play in any Cryptic-based system - simply because it not only doesn't lend itself to role-play, but it's design actually makes any kind of role-play impossible at worst, difficult at best.
With my observations and points made above, how can these be overcome and why would a guild even want me to be part of it to begin with (Sure, I can role-play your pants off, but my D&D lore is as good as completely absent as I've mentioned above), other than simply boosting their own member-count?
Anyway, just hoping to spark up some discussion on the benefit of Guilds for players in general. Chances are I'll join a guild. I like the idea.
EIT to clarify - this is not about ME. The "me" above is generalizes to mean you, the reader. I'd like to see what people think in general terms. I don;t want anyone thinking I am asking people to sell "me" personally! LOL
Anyway....
STO has "Fleets", CO has "Supergroups" (I think that's what it's called" but in essence they are all just Guilds). In STO there is limited benefit to joining a fleet - but there IS benefit - in CO I haven't seen a single reason to join a group - ever. As for NWO Guilds, it makes a lot more sense for group delves - but perhaps not a lot else.
Don't get me wrong: I know what they are, and why they are there and why people love them. However, why would I really want to join any guild (or fleet or supergroup, etc.) when I see lack of benefit/caveats on the following:
Cryptic instance system does not always make it easy for a specific group (team) members to enter the same instance. e.g.: level 30 player mentoring new level 10 player - wants to help out 10 in his quest, but 30 has already played that quest - no way to re-enter it. (House Quest, not foundry quest).
Group-required "delves" and "skirmish" have a queue that will create ad-hoc groups as necessary - granted these players are not accustomed to tactical teamwork and whatnot, but getting a specific team into the same delve may or may not be as simple - based on the queue system - you get the idea.
As for actual role play (I am a highly-experienced role player as role play goes) - All of Cryptic's systems (STO, CO and yes, NWO) are *horrible* for role play, primarily because the in-game communication system just plain sucks. Sure, you can create and use a custom chat channel, but then you;re all in private chat - passersby will not know what's going on and surely can't just jump-in (which is what makes role play highly dynamic) - but open, zone, or local chat is spammed with garbage, including system messages. The only way to PM anyone (or "tell") is wonky at best (I'm NOT a fan of hack-hack codes like "/tell @johndoe to PM someone with a completely different CHARACTER name, etc.) ...but beyond that the overall role-play "atmosphere" is horribly implemented. Difficult to pass object/items to other players "role-play" style (hand-off directly without using "mail" system or "banks" etc.) No free camera movement (unless you hide the UI entirely) - and even then camera is focussed 100% on your character - you cannot focus on others, etc.
So sure: Guild benefit for ad-hocking group delve ... but for role play? I just don't see very satisfying role play in ANY Cryptic MMO (strictly due to the player-to-player communication system limits and massive limits on anything avatar-related). The real benefit for a guild/fleet/supergroup is the potential *role-play*.
Additionally, many guilds want (some actually require) voice chat, out-of-game participation (their own web forums and extra-curricular activities, etc.) - and in the end - when in-game the guild, group, fleet more or less barely hangs-out together as people are engrossed in leveling-up their own characters. Sure, a member can ask in chat for a "group" assistance to do a delve/mission/fleet-encounter, but other members are already tied-up in the middle of something else, so it's difficult to get that help sometimes. As for scheduled guild/fleet/group events? Usually fail because most people's lives don;t center around the group's ongoings and forget about the scheduled event and become no-shows, so the event is perpetually rescheduled, etc. (I see this a lot in STO. CO groups are basically dead-weight entirely).
I'm not asking anyone to debunk these points or justify them or anything else.
I actually like the idea of camaraderie and teams and all that stuff and I have a long devoted love to role-play - and I mean *serious* role play. Very serious role-play and maybe that's why I am disillusioned at the very possibility of decent role-play in any Cryptic-based system - simply because it not only doesn't lend itself to role-play, but it's design actually makes any kind of role-play impossible at worst, difficult at best.
With my observations and points made above, how can these be overcome and why would a guild even want me to be part of it to begin with (Sure, I can role-play your pants off, but my D&D lore is as good as completely absent as I've mentioned above), other than simply boosting their own member-count?
Anyway, just hoping to spark up some discussion on the benefit of Guilds for players in general. Chances are I'll join a guild. I like the idea.
EIT to clarify - this is not about ME. The "me" above is generalizes to mean you, the reader. I'd like to see what people think in general terms. I don;t want anyone thinking I am asking people to sell "me" personally! LOL
iBooks - http://j.mp/WPFFj1 and PDF - http://j.mp/1o2L7qy
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I do understand the need that their communication system lacks. I think part of their reason for this was because they want you to be able to play with the character name you want to play with and the only way to do that was to in essence... Create a surname... Had I thought about that a little more, I would have used my @(name) as a surname. But I don't see why companies just don't go to that model anyways. If Someone chose Tom, I should be able to use Tom Smith and be a completely different character. It would make roleplay a little easier than sending someone a message to Tom@Smith193477
For us, a number in our guild have already turned off zonechat and we use guildchat for OOC and created a channel for RP. Will this work? WHo knows, but we'll give it a try. You're right that it won't get community involvement, but to get around that, when your together in a place and have onlookers... Just use /say... It's better for RP anyways, since you really wouldn't be able to use a global channel to communicate with someone in a different land... My big beef about role play is the lack of emotes... emotes are a big part of roleplay and they should include as many as they can.
Lastly is their system for group play going into Dungeons.... It's horrible... We had a 5 man group try for about an hour to get into the same instance before finally giving up because 1 user could not get in for some reason... If you're in a group, everyone in that group should have priority to enter that dungeon instance and if not, the leader should be notified who can't get in and why. And then ask if you would like to continue with someone else. Doing something like this should not be hard to add to the code in my opinion, but I could be wrong... But parties that are together should stick together as they go into instances...
So hopefully this gave you a little more to chew on... Not sure if I answered any questions, but hopefully added to the discussion.
The Lords of Light - A LGBT Friendly Guild {Social/PvE/Light RP/Events}
You can join or visit with us here.
I always see people in every MMO released talk about roleplay and how the game doesn't cater enough to roleplayers, and I've really never understood it. Roleplay is something you make happen, and if you want to do it you find a way to make it work. Would it be neat to see myself hand someone a mug of ale? Sure, but it doesn't completely ruin my roleplay experience if I can't visually see my character do something. I've been roleplaying in tabletop games for around the same time as I've played MMOs; now maybe some people tabletop different than I do, but when I'm RPing a tabletop game I'm not walking around acting out EVERYTHING my character is doing...if I wanted that I'd go LARP. Neverwinter can offer all the features they want to make our characters look more realistic when interacting with each other (a good start would be letting wizards put their stinkin' fingers down)...but what it really comes down to is having a great community and guild to interact with.
A good example of MAKING roleplay work was the recent beta weekend; Dark Star Syndicate ran an in-character recruitment session. We chose a time, place, and instance, then posted the information in the forums, both here and nw-rp, so that any RPers interested could attend. Instead of 'hoping' something would happen we made something happen, and we had an awesome, fun, and successful 3-4 hour good time.
The instance system they have is a bit annoying, but we didn't have any trouble getting together. All you do is pick an empty instance--and tell everyone to go there. If 4 of you are in instance 10, and 1 of you can't get in, then just EVERYONE switch to instance 19. We had around 12 people at our RP event, and didn't have any issues all getting together, in Protectors Enclave the main hub.
And yes, shut off zone chat. There's pretty much four types of people who use zone chat: Trolls, Troll-Feeders, the clueless and the egotistical. Shutting off zone chat automatically makes the world seem more accommodating, and for our RP session we used /say chat.
To the OP, if you aren't seeing any satisfying RP in any cryptic game, then I have to say, you must be picking the wrong guilds...although to be honest, Champions and STO never really seemed like a good RP environment anyway. D&D though is MADE for RP.
Finally, because this is getting too long, joining a guild that plans to use the Foundry in their RP efforts is going to be an amazing ordeal. If you're in a guild that doesn't plan to implement the Foundry into their RP, I suggest finding a new one :cool:.
I can only speak loosely about STO, because I didn't stay in that game long. However the RP guilds I ran into there were organized and creative. Trust me, they made RP better for any role player who became involved in them!
Champions was just outstanding for RP. Although Champions had a campy flavoring to it, the RP community around the game was just fantastic. I role played there for nearly two years, we documented hundreds of adventures! It was just a great role play experience.
So why join a RP guild?
Well role play requires collaboration and trust. You need to collaborate with other role players. There's nothing worse than role playing in a vacuum! It becomes very lonely and you can, at times, become resentful of that! Secondly, you need trust. This is a key point, I feel some role players forget. Good acting troupes and casts, need to trust one another. In fact, in large productions, that's often the first thing you work on before you even learn all your lines. You literally spend the first day or so on trust exercises!
You need trust, because as your stories and plots become more elaborate, you have to trust your fellow role players, that their stories and hooks are going to entertain you and involve you creatively. That you won't just become a pawn in their massive apparatus.
A guild can really help build that collaboration and trust.
The key is to find the right guild. And that, I confess, is not always so easy.
All of us RP guilds have strengths and weaknesses. So "shopping" for the right guild isn't always easy, because the better the match, the faster the trust and collaboration starts to build.
There's really nothing in NWO mechanically that prohibits good RP. Instancing does require some communication to be sure, but guilds can help facilitate that. But much of the infrastructure RPers need is intact. There's plenty of emotes, there's plenty of taverns and spaces to RP. There is of course a UCG, (the Foundry) which is a RPer's dream.
I understand your frustration, I don't mean to dismiss it, but I think perhaps you judge too harshly. Role play is a community, and the more you can tap into that community effectively and in particular find that niche in the community that suits you, the happier you'll be in your role play. Guilds can be a large part of that exercise.
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I am in Section 31 in STO - it's a great fleet. Though I'm not seeing much role play in there (note: I mean *I* specifically am not seeing much, and I know it's my own circumstances for that) - I do know the fleet is highly active. As for CO: I think 1) I simply arrived too late and 2) just haven;t run into a good role-play group.
In my comments I think I'm more referring to the inability to "control the scene" kind of thing, though NWO does give the biggest advantage in this regard. The only role play I run into in STO is being on someone's bridge and a lot of uninteresting dialog happens, or at instance 1 of Quarks on DS9 there's often an impromptu RP going on.
I did a lot of role play in Second Life for a few years. Perhaps I'm spoiled by the amazing control players get there (on-the-fly object creation, totally fluid camera, etc.)
So I'm in a Guild, role-playing a wayward (name your race and class) looking for someone, because I want revenge for (whatever they did to me or against my family) - I find them in the Hall of Justice in Protector's Enclave... uh... now what? Sure we can have some good dialog tennis, but there's no "risk" - no way to pull a sword or raise the Wizard's golfball... no way to carry the role-play much further than simple dialog.
Of course the answer to this would be the Foundry... and a custom "role play stage". Much more doable (create map point triggers that summon hostile NPCs - "the Wizard calling his crew" or something) - problem: all role players are now on the same team, no PvP in Foundry (that I've ever seen created - not sure it's possible).
So I'm wondering - beyond simple dialog banter, how would such a story progress (the protagonist/antagonist players)? Like I've said, I've done a LOT of role-playing in Second Life, but never was able to get into it in STO 9and wondering about NWO) because of the "non-fluid dynamics" of carrying such elements forward.
As for getting to know others and playing teams with known people: I get that and agree that's the biggest benefit.
Thanks for your perspectives, all.
One word in response to this: understatement!
Once they add PVP, I'm sure they'll add dueling...so if that's the case you can take it further. Some games also add in Colosseum-type-arenas that make everyone PVP flagged for everyone else while inside, so maybe they'd add something like that, or let us make them with a foundry. In the example you used though, if you're in the hall of justice chances are you couldn't carry it further than dialogue anyway, if even that. I highly doubt the Guards would stand idly by as people are fighting with each other...
I've never had much interest to play second life, but I have heard about it. But the type of "fluid-dynamics" you're talking about is something no MMO has done, as far as I know. All MMOs have some type of limit to your freedoms, because you aren't in the world alone, there are usually hundreds or thousands of other players who are enjoying their freedoms also. There are games out there that will let you just walk up to someone and murder them because you feel like it, loot their bodies, and move along...but I don't think Neverwinter is going that route...
The Lords of Light - A LGBT Friendly Guild {Social/PvE/Light RP/Events}
You can join or visit with us here.
I suppose I'll just keep my eyes open and hopefully find some role play I can observe so I can see how it's done in the limited world of Cryptic-style systems (it was always difficult to find active RP in STO - though DS9, Instance 1 was usually a good bet). The next "trick" of course will be finding that right fit, Guildwise. Just saw an advert for a Guild recruiting in NWO, among their requirements: "Expected and Encouraged to use Teamspeak" and "Expected and encouraged to sign-up and use OUR forums" among some other, rather elitist requirements.
Ummm, no.
I spent my time in the U.S. Army (yes, really) I aint about to do that HAMSTER again! LOL
A couple of the more relaxed, chilled-out old-timers Guilds look promising though
As for RP I would prefer to have a 'NO RP PLS' title to try and avoid all those lewd remarks which keep coming from so-called RP-ers as that is what everything tends to degenerate into. Example of one remark, not from this game, is "We should Bang". That to me is not the kind of RP I'd wish to be involved with.
Secondly, guilds are there for friends or like-minded players to play together. They seldom have anything to do with role-play. I always find people to role-play outside of my guild.
@killz2many - Dragon