Classes and Differences Not so much

graylance · March 2013

Hello everyone,

I am not usually a forum poster, but I think that development team is looking at these posts and I hope they will skim over this one.

I played in both beta weekends so far and tried all of the classes available to at least level 30. This, by no means make me an expert but I hope that the input from this post will give something for the developers to think about.

All the classes in this game feel about the same. From a Guardian to a Control Wizard. One might say, that I am wrong - and they might be correct, but I am here to tell you my point of view (take it or leave it).

Considering that this is an action oriented game, I would assume to feel action-like it needs fast pace and a lot of button - mashing as well as each class having a capability to do so. Well, in this aspect the game does a good job. Each class does feel action like and can spam their "at-will" powers almost exclusively and get away with it a lot of the times. Furthermore, each class has a variety of abilities that do essentially the same - cause harm to enemies. This is great so far, but then comes the complaint (**** it) - well 80% of abilities are geared towards dealing damage if not 90%.

Guardian Fighter abilities all are geared towards Dmg, Dmg, Push Back, Block Dmg, Dmg.
Devoted Cleric abilities (granted they have healing component) are geared towards Dot, Dmg, AoE dmg, Heal, Dmg and Root.
Trickster Rogue abilities (can't complain here, do what they do) Dmg, Control -Dmg, Dmg, Dmg, Control, Dmg
Control Wizard abilities (although have some control - rogues seem to do it better) Dmg, Dmg - snare, Dmg, Push back, Dmg, Dmg.

You might say, but they feel different, and I will reply - but of course - they harm enemies in a different way and considering that each class has a dedicated weapon type, they cannot do so in any other way. What I am trying to convey is the fact that all we do is attack and attack, and attack and attack throughout whole encounters.

This realization came to me this weekend when I played a lvl 31 skirmish which culminated in a large demon boss in the end which summons waves and waves of imps and other demons. My party had one of each class in it; I played a Control Wizard at that moment. We won the fight but the whole ordeal was just supremely hectic. Each class was just spamming their abilities and attacking mobs effectively with their damaging attacks. Even though we had all different classes, there was no real feel of structure and since majority of the control/distract/taunt abilities have only a very momentary effects (last only about 2-3 seconds) the fight looked like a gun/sword swinging chickens gulping heal potions.

I would request that the developers look into classes and try and make some adjustments to their roles and maybe accentuate on them.

Guardian Fighter - I think this class is doing well enough with the abilities it has in his/her disposal for the role - but maybe a bit more of taunting tactic would do it good.

Devoted Cleric - Make adjustment to this class so it is less of a DPS and more of a healer. And maybe give it a reason to use heals - usually in dungeons the tanks do not take enough dmg for the cleric to use any of their heals which makes it quite boring. (otherwise, it is a super solo class with - challenge when playing)

Trickster Rogue - I think it performs his/her role well, as it is a dps class anyway.

Control Wizard - Not sure what to comment, but this class needs more control. I mean it has it in the name but the slows and holds that this class currently has are basically useless, unless you want to interrupt a mob or push it away into a trap. This class end up just being a ranged dmg dealer that runs around spamming hp pots and occasionally lift up a mob or 3 for about 1.5 seconds (not sure how much good that does).

Anyway, those were my two cents. I know this is not very well formulated as my thoughts are all over the place, but at least it gives my sentiment on what should be looked into.

airconditioning · March 2013

Seems like valid observations to me.

elminban · March 2013

He'll/she'll get flamed but I agree with his/her point. I did not play rogue or fighter but I was in a few groups that had all the classes and this was what it broke down to. I will say I was in a cloaktower group with four fighter and my wizard and we managed almost as well as one of each class. Not sure what that is suggesting at this point.

xdreeganx · March 2013

I usually felt the same in the other "Floaty" MMOs. It's all the same nonsense with different animations. Tanks are all about aggro/damage. Mages are about control/damage. Healers... well in the other games they're just there as healbots, so it's good to see them having other stuff to do besides hitting their HoT and heal keys over and over again. Rogues... well they are a DPS class right?

It's one of those things that comes with the territory. You just have to let yourself buy into the illusion. Hell, some people I know won't play MMOs period because "It's all about numbers numbers numbers." And there's only so much you can do with this, or about it. So, it's really just a perspective thing.

I will agree with you that Control Wizard either.. needs a bit of work (Like the GF and their block and aggro control does), or MAYBE we just need to get used to how this game works. Which will take more than a couple days in a beta where you're too busy rushing as fast you can before you can really sit down and do some thinking.

I will agree also that some of these skirmishes, and even the dungeon delves seemed hectic, frantic, and even chaotic. However, I expected this. It's an Action styled MMO. Means there's a lot going on. I was also grouping with randoms who I had 0 communication with because everyone wanted to just RUSH RUSH RUSH instead of taking a minute to chill and talk (Curse of randoms, and the curse of being in a short lived BETA). And since I was rushing as well, playing control Wizard, I will admit I wasn't putting a lot of thought into my abilities, how I used them, or any optimal solutions. Hell, I can't tell you how long it took me to realize that TAB was my "Spell Mastery" slot.

My last thing that I'll say is of course 90% of the abilities are meant to do damage. You only have 2+3+2 = 7 abilities that can be used at any time (not counting TAB abilities). So, each ability HAS to do damage as well as whatever effect they need to do. Such as the AoE Taunt < Which made me laugh a bit. Killing a group of kobolds because you screamed at them that hard. This helps in a few ways. One of which, I can actually get used to my "Tanking" abilities on my Guardian Fighter without having to think that I gimped myself while rolling solo. I'm not being ripped out of my comfort zone, so to speak.

You've made some good observations from your perspective, and I appreciate it. But, I think that this relies more on just that, perception. That and some more time with the game itself. I'm sure the Developers will have some things they need to tweak and alter for the game to launch smoothly, and there will most likely be problems in the future. But until then, we just have to let ourselves be absorbed into the game as much as possible, enjoy the ride, and give them the right info to make this game a keeper.

P.S: As a side note. With the dungeons, something I just thought of. All the swords slashing and people using all of their abilities and items to stay alive kind of IS what an Action game is supposed to be more about. Fast paced, quick decision making, and lots of HOLY ****. I will imagine that after the half-way point and beyond where **** starts to get REAL, people will have to buckle down and use more brains than clicking power to survive. The only caveat to that is they'll have to use those strategies quickly and effectively. That will definitely be fun.

hironsss · March 2013

I think the reason all parties are performing the same regardless of class is the solo ability. Each class has enough abilities in their skillset to play solo(most of them) Thus in a dungeon no one is relying on each other.

Classes need way more party oriented skills. Like make a dungeon where archers hit like a cannon and have a wizard that can cast mass reflect or something. Make a roque who can use traps to his advantage or be able to bypass strong mini boss by unlocking a secret door. Or a warrior giving party more hp+armor with a shout skill.

gyloir · March 2013

So basically, you want to see the old "trinity" focus back? That's been done to death in most mmo's.

Where Tanks "taunt" enemies, do HAMSTER dmg.
Where Healers Heal, do HAMSTER damage.
Where Rogues backstab, do high dmg.
Where mages do either high dmg, or lots of cc (but little dmg if the cc kind).

There's a reason healers are usually one of the least played claassaes in mmo's/most sought after, being a "healbot" is not fun for many people (some do find it fun, just many do not).

In an Action oriented rpg you need combat to be frantic/fast paced, not slow, where you have taunts nad whittle away at an enemies life bar for minutes to hours (like back in EQ).

While I am for giving classes more diversity (IE making traps more of a threat from both a dmg standpoint and also cc traps, rogues more useful for disarming them, etc) and cc for "control" wizards, I do not think it should be done at the COST of making ithem less "damagey" tot he point that you force people into groups to simply play the game.

I have been an mmo player for years, and let me tell you, as someone who likes playing warriors,t he kind that wear armour, it was ALWAYS annoying being stuck as the "tank," walking around with armour, generally having a huge axe/mace/sword, and then seeing your dmg be super low, while the little rogue with his tiny dagger was doing so much more dmg. Where's the fun in that? for anyone?

Ther eare ways to diversify classes without BUTCHERING their damage/offensive output, just because a healer can heal doesn't mean you have to cut off their dmg, just because a tank could have some form of a cc lockdown, defenes, doesn't mean he has to then do less damage either.

You can make classes different, varied, without taking away damage/offense.

xdreeganx · March 2013

gyloir wrote: »

So basically, you want to see the old "trinity" focus back? That's been done to death in most mmo's.

Where Tanks "taunt" enemies, do HAMSTER dmg.
Where Healers Heal, do HAMSTER damage.
Where Rogues backstab, do high dmg.
Where mages do either high dmg, or lots of cc (but little dmg if the cc kind).

There's a reason healers are usually one of the least played claassaes in mmo's/most sought after, being a "healbot" is not fun for many people (some do find it fun, just many do not).

In an Action oriented rpg you need combat to be frantic/fast paced, not slow, where you have taunts nad whittle away at an enemies life bar for minutes to hours (like back in EQ).

While I am for giving classes more diversity (IE making traps more of a threat from both a dmg standpoint and also cc traps, rogues more useful for disarming them, etc) and cc for "control" wizards, I do not think it should be done at the COST of making ithem less "damagey" tot he point that you force people into groups to simply play the game.

I have been an mmo player for years, and let me tell you, as someone who likes playing warriors,t he kind that wear armour, it was ALWAYS annoying being stuck as the "tank," walking around with armour, generally having a huge axe/mace/sword, and then seeing your dmg be super low, while the little rogue with his tiny dagger was doing so much more dmg. Where's the fun in that? for anyone?

Ther eare ways to diversify classes without BUTCHERING their damage/offensive output, just because a healer can heal doesn't mean you have to cut off their dmg, just because a tank could have some form of a cc lockdown, defenes, doesn't mean he has to then do less damage either.

You can make classes different, varied, without taking away damage/offense.

There's still a solid trinity in this game. And there's nothing wrong with the trinity. ESPECIALLY in this game. Tanks have to do a LOT of work in order to Tank. From damage, to good taunts, and lots of resource/skill management. This is the most active tank role I've seen in an MMO. And the same goes for all the classes. I see the subtle things. Getting that perfect block. Your CW shooting that Icicle at just the right time to cancel out an ability that was gonna bone your cleric. Well timed dodges, dailies, and class abilities party wide to make encounters easier to handle, or even just to survive. It's good stuff.

There's a reason the Trinity works. But this game does is far better than most. Everyone feels like they're contributing. If you don't feel that you are... you're probably not doing anything.

horrorscope666 · March 2013

It is sort of the Guild Wars effect. Everyone can be self sufficient, trinity not needed in dungeons and all of that. It's then a personal taste, do you like that? Devs are trying to make it so you don't have to wait for someone else to play with.

horrorscope666 · March 2013

gyloir wrote: »

So basically, you want to see the old "trinity" focus back? That's been done to death in most mmo's.

Where Tanks "taunt" enemies, do HAMSTER dmg.
Where Healers Heal, do HAMSTER damage.
Where Rogues backstab, do high dmg.
Where mages do either high dmg, or lots of cc (but little dmg if the cc kind).

Yes you can make is sound sad. But in the words of Dave Mustaine... "If there's a new way. I'll be the first in line. It better work this time." I'm not sure I've noticed a non-trinity game being better, though different.

Classes and Differences Not so much

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