Wizards according to 4th ed.

presbytier7 · March 2013

The Wizard according to Cryptic has a split personality their powers are split between a War Wizard and a Control Wizard respectively. In fact I will send Cryptic my 4th ed. Players Handbook so they can go back to the drawing board on this one. Also stop going for a standard MMO skill tree; use all the skills available to a given level and let me pick which ones i want to use for a true D&D feel.

Now the main concern is the Control Wizard ever going to become a Control Wizard or are they going to stay a qouzi Control/War Wizard. According to the PHB a Wizard's powers "are all about affecting multiple targets at the same time-sometimes two or three foes, sometimes everyone in the room. In addition, you are the master of utility spells that let you avoid or overcome many obstacles, from flying across chasms to halting the flow of time(page 157 of PHB)".

I fell the Wizard lacks in real utility or actual abilities do to its split personality implementation in the game so far. I would honestly hope their is sufficient time before release to rework the entire class. Also the CW is not the princess of Ice Spells, give me greater choices and let me actually pick my skills like in D&D; sure you can limit them, but there is no reason why I should not be allowed to have dungeoneering.:cool:

championshewolf · March 2013

You can set your spells to affect multiple targets actually and several do. Putting spells in the tab slot makes them more powerful, like point blank spells because AE targetable or other spells become conal AEs in effect. I don't get the complaint that people say the wizard has a split personality, which seems odd, the wizard had the most utility and ability to adapt to me throughout my entire beta weekend experience, hence why I was using the class the most. I could change my routine based on the encounter if I thought about it before hand.

presbytier7 · March 2013

championshewolf wrote: »

You can set your spells to affect multiple targets actually and several do. Putting spells in the tab slot makes them more powerful, like point blank spells because AE targetable or other spells become conal AEs in effect. I don't get the complaint that people say the wizard has a split personality, which seems odd, the wizard had the most utility and ability to adapt to me throughout my entire beta weekend experience, hence why I was using the class the most. I could change my routine based on the encounter if I thought about it before hand.

The reason I and many others say that is do to the fact that the WC's spells are split between control and wizard archetypes. Unfortunately this causes the WC to be good at none of those.

championshewolf · March 2013

Again, I heartily disagree, but then again I was railroading over most things and setting myself up ahead of time for encounters instead of just barreling in. I focused almost exclusively on the control (and no not just ice) swapping to other spells when I knew certain spells would have little to no effect in the situation.

allaerra · March 2013

Unless you somehow had different spells than everyone else, there wasn't much BESIDES ice. Ice, ice and more ice. The implementation of this class made me wonder if the developers had ever played D&D or even any D&D based videogame before.

I had a blast playing the character, don't get me wrong, but it did tarnish the experience not having a varied spell arsenal.

Very few of the spells affected several targets, which is supposed to be the nature of the "Control" part of the name.

wmeffectiveness · March 2013

Going to disrespectfully disagree(with all the disrespect I can muster).
What level did you get to with your wizard, btw?

presbytier7 · March 2013

championshewolf wrote: »

Again, I heartily disagree, but then again I was railroading over most things and setting myself up ahead of time for encounters instead of just barreling in. I focused almost exclusively on the control (and no not just ice) swapping to other spells when I knew certain spells would have little to no effect in the situation.

Let me just quote someone else.

gothielocks wrote: »

First of all Id like to say i see allot of potential for the class however Ive been hearing about allot of nerfs going on not just in this class that many people are upset about. I think cryptic has allot of work ahead of it because those who enjoyed weekend beta 1 were crying i quit this beta. That being said tho i am not disagreeing that CW needs allot of work the class itself does not feel like a class that just anyone can play. Once i got the hang of it things did get allot better but really this class in its current state is not a easy class to play at all.

First of all they nerfed the daily charge up so it took way to long for you to even be able to use daily skills witch seemed very important to the control wizard. I think other classes may have felt this nasty blow but it really made it just that much harder for control wizards because sometimes a aoe hold or a knock back can mean everything in a fight. That comes to the lack of consistent aoe CC i understand their trying to balance things but this game is big on fighting 4+ mobs most times and this class just feels messy and out of control rather then in control. Being forced to rely on teleporting to survive gets so messy especially in areas where theirs mobs every way you look. I know their was quite a few times in the many arrows ork area i had 3 or 4 groups on me popping potions to live. Even for someone who has learned to be aware of their surroundings and know where its safe to knock back or teleport to theirs just no room for this. Once i cleared out a decent area killing 2 or 3 groups and popping potions i was able to keep pushing forward quickly and using the space i cleared as a battle zone but your forced to move quickly because of re spawn.

Just giving us the ability to teleport more often is not the answer cryptic mages are squishy they need some defense. If people are worried about the CC in PVP the answer is not to kill our defense by nerfing the control. The answer could be as simple as adding skills to the game that allow you to remove CC and I'm not saying to go crazy with this either and make control wizard suck at pvp I'm saying to find the balance this way may be a better solution.

I see people saying that its not so bad at higher levels and others say its just as bad. This again comes back to what i expected that this class is a more difficult class to play and not just anyone can play it. However most everyone is saying that at low levels this class is a nightmare so maybe a few spells should have their levels re arranged to make things a little easier at lower levels.

One problem i'm seeing more and more in games now is the lowering of damage for casters. People who play other classes dont realize that offense is a mages defense. A rogue has its stuns and stealth's and high damage backstabs, Healers have their heals, Fighters have their higher armor, a mage is supposed to have its damage output to kill things before their hit. Control wizard may be a good alternative to this but that's only if they have that much needed control. People have been losing interest in casters more and more because in so many games mele is able to out dps them and that is just wrong. Casters have become crippled in general and this makes me sad. When i started playing mmos i fell in love with casters and the way things are going I have found myself wondering if i even want to play anymore.

All I can say is stop balancing classes around PvP Cryptic; in fact take PvP out like you originally intended(by the way I like PvP in most games but D&D is not built around it).

sand1972 · March 2013

championshewolf wrote: »

Again, I heartily disagree, but then again I was railroading over most things and setting myself up ahead of time for encounters instead of just barreling in. I focused almost exclusively on the control (and no not just ice) swapping to other spells when I knew certain spells would have little to no effect in the situation.

Thats because the game is inherently easy. Everyone was railroading things at lower levels. That doesnt mean the CW is properly balanced or able to effectively control things on the battlefield. 2 sec freezes are not control. A ray of ice that doesnt actually slow the movement rate of its target, is not control. etc etc.

presbytier7 · March 2013

sand1972 wrote: »

Thats because the game is inherently easy. Everyone was railroading things at lower levels. That doesnt mean the CW is properly balanced or able to effectively control things on the battlefield. 2 sec freezes are not control. A ray of ice that doesnt actually slow the movement rate of its target, is not control. etc etc.

I would like to add that the issue is the fact that this is being sold a s a D&D MMO and so far it falls real short on the D&D end of things.

mustrumridcully0 · March 2013

presbytier7 wrote: »

Let me just quote someone else.

All I can say is stop balancing classes around PvP Cryptic; in fact take PvP out like you originally intended(by the way I like PvP in most games but D&D is not built around it).

I loved Startrek Online PvP. Until the unabashed power creep on the PVE side and no adaptations for PVP basically turned the balance from bad to worse, and was never really fixed. And whenever something was fixed, the PvE players hated on the PvP players because they "ruined" their game. It's just unhealthy.

They are really not good at balancing PvP, and I would strongly recommend them seperating PvE and PvP mechanics.

D&D 4 is definitely not designed for PvP. It's intentionally designed so that player characters are complex with lots of powers and choices, while NPCs are more simpler designed so that the Dungeon Master's head doesn't explode from all the overhead of running 5 monsters against 5 tricked out player characters which each their own brain controlling it. ("Oh, this Dragon is also a Level 12 Sorceror, that means I must select the spells he knows and what spells he has cast, and wow, mage Armor and Shield on a Dragon is really effective!")

talen4 · March 2013

presbytier7 wrote: »

In fact I will send Cryptic my 4th ed. Players Handbook so they can go back to the drawing board on this one. Also stop going for a standard MMO skill tree; use all the skills available to a given level and let me pick which ones i want to use for a true D&D feel.

I think Cryptic should hold you to this. So hit your post office and mail your 4ed PhB to them. Or were you just being over-dramatic? I feel bad for developers that have to read this kind of inane rant. You do understand they are making an action MMO and not D&D pen and paper visualized right?

stormhammy · March 2013

presbytier7 wrote: »

Now the main concern is the Control Wizard ever going to become a Control Wizard or are they going to stay a qouzi Control/War Wizard. According to the PHB a Wizard's powers "are all about affecting multiple targets at the same time-sometimes two or three foes, sometimes everyone in the room. In addition, you are the master of utility spells that let you avoid or overcome many obstacles, from flying across chasms to halting the flow of time(page 157 of PHB)".

My....gosh....
He's right!
Cryptic has to build MOAR CHASMS so that control wizards can fly across them!

<

They also have to develop device that will bypass Einstein's theory of relativity to allow control wizards to halt time.

warbaby3 · March 2013

Even if they are making an action MMO, it still is a D&D flavored one... that's what it's advertised as... why departing so much from a perfectly usable toolset (the 4E rules)? I think nobody is asking them to use the whole rules, that wouldn't be practical for a MMO... especially an action oriented one... but deliberately leaving out iconic mechanics? That could be a bad idea.

Belive it or not, the D&D crowd is a large and dedicated one, if I was Cryptic, I'd try to appease them to invest them self into my game...

@stormhammy: I'm pretty sure there is no person called Einstein in any D&D campaign setting... nor theories like that.

bruddajokka · March 2013

Well if you think about it they could probably pull off a good moba style pvp mode with this. But isn't this thread about the Wizard.

presbytier7 · March 2013

talen4 wrote: »

I think Cryptic should hold you to this. So hit your post office and mail your 4ed PhB to them. Or were you just being over-dramatic? I feel bad for developers that have to read this kind of inane rant. You do understand they are making an action MMO and not D&D pen and paper visualized right?

I was merely pointing out that there claim to making a 4th ed based D&D game is tenuous at best. This is an action rpg based in the D&D world; I just want the game they claimed to be making.

presbytier7 · March 2013

stormhammy wrote: »

My....gosh....
He's right!
Cryptic has to build MOAR CHASMS so that control wizards can fly across them!
<

They also have to develop device that will bypass Einstein's theory of relativity to allow control wizards to halt time.

Humorous but missing the point. I was pointing out that as it stands the Control Wizard does not feel like a D&D Control Wizard.

thecain · March 2013

Honestly? Their control spells need to last longer, have wider range, and do more damage. We should see them pulling entire swathes of enemies into a certain area, or right on top of a Great Weapon Fighter who just happened to be charging, just ripping them all in half. We should see Time Halting, slowing, and freeze should come up at least in 3 seconds, with running speed slowly in 33% increments (33, 66, 100%/Freeze), and actually HOLD. The Wizard is not meant to stand there and take damage, and the current system doesn't let them run away and shoot at enemies.

I will admit that I loved the idea at the start. One of my first characters in RP was an Ice Mage who also dabbled Arcane, this character is literally him, yet I feel forcing everyone else to be like me would more hurt the game than help it. I'd like to see their powers expanded on, or see the abilities split between Wizard types (Control, War), and instead make it so you change classes based on weapon you're wielding, or based on if you leveled that class or not (so later added classes must be leveled through as well). It's a system they added to PSO2, and it worked beautifully.

tormsy85 · March 2013

stormhammy wrote: »

They also have to develop device that will bypass Einstein's theory of relativity to allow control wizards to halt time.

Dammit, I really wish time stop would still be an epic spell in 4e =(.

losbin68 · March 2013

people this is not D&D they are just using names and some spells. You want d&d go to ddo or to the neverwinter game it self. Done play this game if you expect it to be anything like d&d

jedidethfreak823 · March 2013

TC, your problem is that you think Cryptic is ever going to actually put DnD into this game, outside of references to books based on DnD.

They won't. It's too hard, apparently.

gaymer87 · March 2013

This post is made by someone who doesn't want to pay more than 20.00 for a computer game????????

Isn't DnD all about attacking other players and xploring dungeons? To say that DnD is not PvP built is kind of dumb, of course it's not because it is played on paper ( the GM is all the PvP you get.

), but in an online world setting it makes a lot of sense. DnD is about a fantasy world where people are heroes and villians. I mean how unreal is it to not have to worry about being murdered by another person. You're enemies cannot just be goblins and dragons.

txhawk · March 2013

D&D 4E is not balanced for PVP, according to its writers. The classes are designed to complement each other, not to be effective against each other.

So no, the PnP version is most definitely not about attacking other players.

So if this game cannot have any hope of PVP balance if it sticks to the 4E mechanics.

So we can have one or the other, not both.

Personally, I think PvP in an MMO is all kinds of pointless, and would rather PVP in a game exclusively designed for PVP, but that's just personal opinion.

ragnarok1011 · March 2013

Everyone argues over the DnD side. Yes, Cryptic is using the DnD logo to get people to play the game. Is it DnD. NO! Outside of the Setting of the Forgotten Realms, this game is about as close to DnD as Diablo is to Final Fantasy. It is nothing more than a railroad button masher that would fit better on a console than a PC. Hell, the engine was made for the console, as it is the same engine that Champions was made on and that was originally meant to be Marvel online which would release on the XBOX 360 until M$ pulled out. SO, in closing, any true fan of DnD that wants a true blue DnD experience, look somewhere else. Cryptic does not care that this is not a DnD game and it is too late for them to change it if they did. Wish it wasn't so, but I will not lose sleep over this piece of tripe. They can have my money, I have plenty. Hopefully they will use it for something smarter than whom ever designed this game.

Wizards according to 4th ed.

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