Ok, so heaps upon heaps of people come into any RPG gaming from the background of compleatly controlling the direction of their characters. PnP is the king in this respect. And to many it seems it is a selling-point to be able to create a unique character, one that has personality and in some respect differ from all other characters.
While I understand that defining an identity is an integral part in human cognition, and therefore the draw of such mechanics. I have to ask:
Is it really that important?
Now, please read on before you argue against me.
Point 1:Ever since I started playing RPG's, one of the defining aspects has been costumization, and therefore also the ability to learn the system. Baldurs gate was a great example. I restarted characters because if I lowered INT with 1 point, and put it into DEX, I could use this and that item. And this was fun, alot of fun. I compared with my friends and discussed different mechanics. BG2 we did a Ranger/Mage dual-class, that meant we had energy-shield, 2 weapons, buffs and heaps of dmg-bonus and THAC0-bonus.
Then came the internet.
Builds are tested, posted, and duplicated. the latest Diablo-game (D3) is a super-example of my point here. Eventually there where really only 3 viable builds. One for kiting that where used before you had enough gold to get the good gear. One for arcane DPS, which was viable if you farmed certain areas, but not others, and Critical Mass/Wicked Wind build for when you had enough gold to get the right gear. So all these spells, all this costumization that would allow for diverse builds where tossed away because they eventually became less attractive. Also, the fun of Wizzards dissapeared. It became face-rolling in the sense that you headbanged like a parkinsons patient.
So here I would suggest this, allow the devs to create a class, that plays like intended, and if you want a different experience, create a new class. I gladly sacrifice individuality for balance and game-play enjoyment.
Point 2: Now, I understand that there is a Role-Play aspect that has to be adressed. Some want the control, not to find the best build, but to role-play, to be immersed. Sword-mage, Stealth-warrior etc. And I accept that it is one of the best parts of RPG's. But I think that we have to ask ourselves, what is most important, what do we want to prioritize. As the devs have stated somewhere (cannot remember) many want unlimited options, but once they get it, it turns out that they don't enjoy the game which is the result of such freedom of choice. And I agree. PnP, or maby TES (skyrim, not the online game... I am skeptical that TES can feasibly become an MMO without loosing what makes it TES). So while this is certainly a perspective to be respected, I feel that it is a task not suited for an MMO, therefore I look for other venues to get that experience.
Summary: All in all, I think that the 5 classes present seem to be fun and distinct. While I would like to have endless options, I value gameplay and balance much, much higher.
-First and foremost, character customization has always been Cryptic's thing. They took superhero customization and made it into an art form, almost literally, with CoX. Then, they made CoX look like playing with Barbies with Champions. After that, STO brought customization into a space where nobody thought it would fit, and they did it very well.
Now, they have almost done an about-face in this regard.
-Second, your first point pretty much boils down to "in order to deal with cookie-cutter, Flavor-of-the-Month builds, we need to make every class cookie-cutter." That doesn't sound like a solution at all. Also, keep in mind that the reason FOTM builds change is because people are trying new things out. In the original Guild Wars, I guarantee you my Ranger had little in common with any of the published builds, but was equally as effective in PvE.
-Third, I don't know of anyone who would say that a game that totally removes every hint of customization to maintain gameplay balance is a good game, or made by a talented team of developers.
Now, I can't say with any certainty as to whether or not NW will be a good game. That's beside my point here. My point is, there's no good argument to support a lack of customization in any modern RPG, whether it's based on DnD or not. There's no good excuse for it at all in a game based on DnD.
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castagyreMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 4Arc User
edited February 2013
I can see where you're coming from and agree to an extent. The FotM/cookie cutter build is what most people will be drawn to in these games no matter what options there are for allowing diversity. I've played so many of these games and the same holds true time and time again. Even in games like CO or CoX with very wide diversity possible in builds people still clone a forum posted winner. Sometimes it doesn't even matter if that is the best build for them, they read it and saw someone else do well with it. No thinking required.
And, as a role player, I don't buy skill choice as a defining part of character attachment. Most role players play the concept regardless of the game mechanics since game mechanics almost never come into play in the middle of a role play scene. Just wait and see how many people ignore race and class in this game for the sake of 'role play' no matter what is offered. Suspension of disbelief is important, especially in an online game with no GM to micro manage things.
In the end I am actually more concerned with appearance customization than class. I think we need, and will get, a little more leeway than we are getting at this time for basic archetypes. So not all tanks will be sword and board for instance. But to me it is more important that my character look like my character than that he is a completely unique in build so long as what's offered mechanically works.
Remembering Hanlon's Razor can save one a lot on aspirines.
Its huge in importance I mean if you look at Star Wars Galaxy it got real confusing because you have 100,000 Han Solos running around the Baba Fett guild tried to kill all of them one year.
If the control wizard has set spells that everyone gets then it not going to matter who you party with at any time.
My Wizard from Icewind dale dosen't want magic missle I want spells like:
Illusory Ambush
Ray of Frost
Grasping Shadows
Freezing Cloud
Phanton Chasm
Feats like
Sneak of Shadows so I get a sneak with a ray attack
I mean a real control Wizard Slows and Immobilizes the hoards
Battlemages are the ones who want Magic missle massive dmg spells.
If spells are static then this is going to get boring real fast since there will be 200 Wizards all with the same spells.
Gaming companies are really starting to figure out that looking unique is very important to gamers, at least important to a segment of gamers that you can make a very nice living off of them. I think The Secret World found this out and now they have an entire cottage industry, just selling their community gear to look unique and cool in.
As for unique builds, yeah, welcome to the world of power-gaming and copy-cat builds. It's a rampant thing that I don't think will go away. Almost all gaming systems can be min-maxed at some level. For a lot of people, this IS the game, to simply find and determine the most efficient builds.
None of that I mind, what kills me are people with copy-cat builds, claiming other people "don't play their class right" because they dare to do something a tad different than what google tells you to do. There's just an intolerance in gaming, that I'll never understand. There's just a segment of gamers that seem to be perpetually disgruntled and unhappy, yet continue to obsessively play.
I'd like to see MMOs break away from the tank/heal/DPS design. In fact, I welcome a game where there's NO healing. There's only recuperation between fighting. Perhaps that's too bizarre, but I'd like someone to toy with the construct, because all games seem to derive into the same general, very predictable formula.
It's why I continue to scoff at people who brag about how well they play MMOs. These games aren't hard. I've seen middle-school kids master them. They are however, a lot of fun, so sit back, relax and enjoy them.
Yeah, I'd like more unique builds out there. As a RPer I try to build to character concept, rather than statistical efficiency, but I too, sometimes can't resist easy min-max building.
My question is: what class/ability gets nerfed first? There's usually always one within two weeks of launch.
SHADOW - A secret cabal for those who thirst for wealth and power. Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
0
yellatrukMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 14Arc User
edited February 2013
Personally I really dont care about my character's voice and appearance in games. What stands out to me is building a unique class and working the game mechanics in attempts to make the most powerful/fun class. That is the main reason I got into playing D&D games like DDO and Baldurs gate because they are so dynamic and versatile.
In general the list of money earners in f2p mmo's are faster xp, powerups, consumables and then costume sets and power sets so that's about where it's rated.
-First and foremost, character customization has always been Cryptic's thing. They took superhero customization and made it into an art form, almost literally, with CoX. Then, they made CoX look like playing with Barbies with Champions. After that, STO brought customization into a space where nobody thought it would fit, and they did it very well.
Now, they have almost done an about-face in this regard.
I think I might has a heart attack, wait for it, wait for it, I agree with jedidethfreak823 on something.
Visually NWO is horrible for character creation as compared to CoX and CO. The first thing I noticed was the amazingly lacking choices in hair color.
In general the list of money earners in f2p mmo's are faster xp, powerups, consumables and then costume sets and power sets so that's about where it's rated.
Locked box keys are probably a bigger earner than all of those.
Ok, so heaps upon heaps of people come into any RPG gaming from the background of compleatly controlling the direction of their characters. PnP is the king in this respect. And to many it seems it is a selling-point to be able to create a unique character, one that has personality and in some respect differ from all other characters.
While I understand that defining an identity is an integral part in human cognition, and therefore the draw of such mechanics. I have to ask:
Is it really that important?
Now, please read on before you argue against me.
Point 1:Ever since I started playing RPG's, one of the defining aspects has been costumization, and therefore also the ability to learn the system. Baldurs gate was a great example. I restarted characters because if I lowered INT with 1 point, and put it into DEX, I could use this and that item. And this was fun, alot of fun. I compared with my friends and discussed different mechanics. BG2 we did a Ranger/Mage dual-class, that meant we had energy-shield, 2 weapons, buffs and heaps of dmg-bonus and THAC0-bonus.
Then came the internet.
Builds are tested, posted, and duplicated. the latest Diablo-game (D3) is a super-example of my point here. Eventually there where really only 3 viable builds. One for kiting that where used before you had enough gold to get the good gear. One for arcane DPS, which was viable if you farmed certain areas, but not others, and Critical Mass/Wicked Wind build for when you had enough gold to get the right gear. So all these spells, all this costumization that would allow for diverse builds where tossed away because they eventually became less attractive. Also, the fun of Wizzards dissapeared. It became face-rolling in the sense that you headbanged like a parkinsons patient.
So here I would suggest this, allow the devs to create a class, that plays like intended, and if you want a different experience, create a new class. I gladly sacrifice individuality for balance and game-play enjoyment.
Point 2: Now, I understand that there is a Role-Play aspect that has to be adressed. Some want the control, not to find the best build, but to role-play, to be immersed. Sword-mage, Stealth-warrior etc. And I accept that it is one of the best parts of RPG's. But I think that we have to ask ourselves, what is most important, what do we want to prioritize. As the devs have stated somewhere (cannot remember) many want unlimited options, but once they get it, it turns out that they don't enjoy the game which is the result of such freedom of choice. And I agree. PnP, or maby TES (skyrim, not the online game... I am skeptical that TES can feasibly become an MMO without loosing what makes it TES). So while this is certainly a perspective to be respected, I feel that it is a task not suited for an MMO, therefore I look for other venues to get that experience.
Summary: All in all, I think that the 5 classes present seem to be fun and distinct. While I would like to have endless options, I value gameplay and balance much, much higher.
Whats your opinion... oh and sorry about the WoT
I think the part about viable builds is valid. There will be an overall consensus of what is the ideal build and people will follow that. Devs may tweak things then a new build emerges and on and on its the nature of the Internet. It is extremely difficult to create a huge variety of builds because something will always be the best.
Where game companies can do amazing things and for the most part hasn't been done full on is customization of the avatar. I like the costume wardrobe idea that has been toyed with but I still don't like that they are just costumes.
What I like is that gear is distinct and functional. It is fun to have your avatar decked out in cool looking yet functional gear. We may not have a huge variety of builds here but it would be a tun of fun to be able to feel unique through how we look. I don't mean unique because we bought a costume and we are low level pansies that look epic, but we look epic and are geared epic.
All in all, I think that the 5 classes present seem to be fun and distinct. While I would like to have endless options, I value gameplay and balance much, much higher.
I agree. Customization in all ways is what I want. I don't care if I have to buy flexibility or extra hairs or whatever. I want it. I've come to expect it from Cryptic and so far, I feel very limited.
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kronos6913Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 24Arc User
This here thread is not about cosmetic costumization. I am all for that, this is about gameplay costomisation (sp?) which has to allow for balance to be the superceedent priority.
More hair, faces, bodies and such, I am all for that
Yes, well this thread was not intended to have anything about appearance. Just classes, feats, skills. Things that affect game-balance.
Races as well, but not in the sense of their inclusion, on in their large impact on game-play uber-relevance, if you understand what I mean. Should you want to discuss races and appearances I would gladly go into it in detail should that thread be created.
Thank you all for your compliance, noting to see here, just a gas-leak or the aurora borealis
To the point it should probably be regulated as gambling. (i.e. slot machines)
I hate locked boxes, however they are not "gambling" any more than a huge number of other things in life are. Regulate trading card games too. MtG has been around for basically a decade and is exactly the same thing as locked boxes, D&D mini's as well as many other "gaming" things follow this same model.
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seedyman42Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
Trading card games are not random, they are unpredictable.
There is a fixed number of each rarity of card on every sheet printed, etc.
Things like lock boxes can, in theory, NEVER pay out anything but the trash items, and nobody would ever know except the people in control. Meanwhile Jack and Jill are spending the BIG bucks, just knowing that the slot-machine will pay out if they just buy one more key.
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muzrub333Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
Spellwarden, I agree pretty much across the board. Character distinction in a game like this is really not that important; balance is what is needed, as it's going to have PvP, which only increase the "need" for a specific build in the mind of most players. I think cosmetic customization, or "fluff" like some of the background stuff is more important here, because that is where a characters individuality can shine through.
Would I love to see a huge sandbox, with deep variation between classes, and the ability to just go crazy with being unique? Yes, and some day I have confidence I'll/we'll see that, but not yet.
Again, I think just about any system can be min/maxed no matter how elegant or complex, so you'll always see cookie cutter builds. The pro Magic the Gathering tour, generally only has two or three valid deck constructs within a cycle.
If you simplify the system (like say chess) you can still get an infinite variety of how a game will play, but the system can't be "exploited" to maximize efficiency. Other than a very few standard opening moves, chess is very elegant that way, but it is an exception and not a rule.
Games that have heaps of configurations for statistical advantage, will eventually produce the math to find the maximum advantage, which is then copied by people who struggle with middle school algebra.
Thankfully, this is a class system at least, which puts firewalls on the types of builds you can make and pushes builds into niches within a team, rather than a skill system, which is almost always exploited. Ironically skill-based systems tend to produce less variance than class systems, the very thing they were allegedly designed to avoid.
But people won't pay for statistical advantage, or at least if it is made available to buy, gamers scream about "pay to win". I don't fully understand the problem, particularly since Magic the Gathering long established that it's not only a viable business model, gamers actually like it (despite griping). But I could be wrong here, I am not a competitive gamer, I'm a collaborative gamer. Even in competitive tabletop games that I play, it's the meta-game and social elements that entertain me most.
People will buy vanity items however and really to just an astounding degree. It's amazing how much people crave looking unique in a game. People scoff at it, but it truly works and most certainly helps games such as this fund and sustain themselves. It's often a role-play thing and if there's been any positive development in MMOs in the last two years, in my opinion, it's that gaming companies have woken up to the fact that RPers are a cash cow. We not only generally have lots of disposable income, but we apparently are quite happy to dispose of it, all for the sake of vanity and being a "unique snowflake" within a video game.
Thank a Carebear next time you see one, it's our sincere love of crafting unique characters, that are making F2P viable in the first place.
SHADOW - A secret cabal for those who thirst for wealth and power. Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
In answer to thread title. VERY. However while I am starting to see some great progress in character looks and styles being well made. The overall Class and Race list is dismally low. I could add about 10 extra races right now without needing to spend ANY time on adding extra grahpis they don't already have in the game, Adding the entire list of cross bread half races is easy as most to many of them are just the changed stats and very little visual change.
While races like orc are already in the game and just need to be given player access. However it's the classes that are hurting, only 4 classes at the start is a very poor choice, and will lead to clone fever so bad. So untill they get off their back sides and get to work on the important things I fear Character Uniqueness will be a joke. I mean in beta all you saw were rogues, rogues and more rogues..... And only having 4 classes at lunch might do a ton of damage to long term retention.
But there are 5 classes available at launch, and 2 more already announced post launch (ranger and warlock I think). One is a caster, which makes me go YAY, but not knowing DnD in detail as a PnP (I know the swedish version, called Dragons & Deamons, original, I know ), I will stay in fear of getting a WoW Warlock. Waerloga
Edit
The last post (the one just above this one) informs me that the incessant talk about appearance that keeps getting in here, is a product from people adding their thoughts without reading the OP. I will state againe, the WoT in the OP is not about Appearance. But about skills costumization.
0
apocrs1980Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
Here is my stand point, Uniqueness it very important to me, so much so that I actually made my own sound files and portraits for myself and my friends in Baldur's Gate. If we are playing a hero we want to feel like we are making a difference in the world and that our special skills and appearance are what set us apart from other classes/races. I feel World of Warcraft went drastically wrong here they made every class able to everything basically offering nothing special there all blended together there is nothing different other than spells which do the same thing just with a different graphic. Rouges disarm traps and offer sneaky tactics opening alternate paths in dungeons, warriors are those combat hardened experts keeping the rest of their party safe from harm, etc. etc. The only reason they balance classes is to make them more viable in PvP and honestly when this is done it caters to the PvP crowd and takes away the uniqueness of your character from PvE. As long as they stick to traditional D&D they should be fine. It's so unattractive just to be some generic dps in a group that really could do without your character as you offer nothing special to the group other than added dps, I like to have value, (oh whats this, stand back I'm a rogue I can handle this trap so we can pass safely vs everyone pop your damage reduction CD were just going to run through this). whats the point of even having traps? Nevermind I'm ranting but I feel very passionate about this, if they make every class able to do everything and offer no real value to playing that class I will just stick to dungeon building.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The Cragsteep Crypt - BETA Ravenloft Look for@Apocrs1980 or visit the main page here or Ravenloft here
Well, I like character customization BUT I remind that I love D&D (red box) and that in this box character where not unique. The fighter can use any weapon BUT it has really only one attack skill. So all warrior were the same and a no brainer. The differences came from the rolling, which were difference in power, but quite minor.
I say at this point. I don't care about balance, even in PvP.
But still I need my character to be unique. But as far as I reckon, it is not much the choice of the proffession than the roleplay that make your character unique. To achieve that a game have to offer roleplay occasion that will have an impact on the world. Ie you need a game where killing monster is not important and quite rare.
That leads to the interest of various class or build or skill system (I prefer a one class fit all like the old chaosium system). If the only thing to do with your sill is to fight then I will agree with the OP, no need to make customization (unless the came is to be the best min-max but that would better fit a game where you design giant robot). If however social position is important, more important than killing monster, or if survival is important, then different skill will be an interesting way to customize your character and offer what other don't (like you have better survival skill in desert, useless in combat, but usefull for a party who want to travel the desert). To a lesser extend in one game a class can open portal and anyone can travel through them. This is not really useful in combat but some other activites it is a quick way to the end.
I think the problem is that the only activity offer in MMORPG is combat. Therefore what make a fighter different from another fighter when training (everyone at max level) and abilities (abilities are not random) are the same : the gear. The skill will actually be somewhat the same in real life (example the gladiator, btw arena combat balance result in less than optimum gear very different from the legionnaire outfit).
If we want variety and so uniqueness, we need too that it is difficult to have all the skill avialable to one character and that acquiring non combat skill can be as useful.
Bottom line, in Arabel (NWN private server) my character was unique because it was the only one selling on the market and because she made a big used of summoning a giant spider that she called "pepette" otherwise her spells was quite cookie cuter (improved invisibility, magic missille en masse...)
quorforgedMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
It's fairly important to me because creating, designing, and optimizing a character's build is a form of gameplay that I enjoy greatly. But not the only form. I also like fast combat systems, and deep tactics. Limited customizability makes those easier to do well. It's all a tradeoff, and until I play it, I can't really say for sure if it'll work for me. The nearly total lack of something that I look for in RPGs is a concern, though.
But there are 5 classes available at launch, and 2 more already announced post launch (ranger and warlock I think). One is a caster, which makes me go YAY, but not knowing DnD in detail as a PnP (I know the swedish version, called Dragons & Deamons, original, I know ), I will stay in fear of getting a WoW Warlock. Waerloga
Edit
The last post (the one just above this one) informs me that the incessant talk about appearance that keeps getting in here, is a product from people adding their thoughts without reading the OP. I will state againe, the WoT in the OP is not about Appearance. But about skills costumization.
Well when the title says what it says and takes the very "minor" view of the title instead of the more common version of what people think about tells me there is something wrong with the posting of the thread.
That said about the whole class thing, there are 4 not 5 at launch, becuase 2 of the classes are based of the same base class. This is not seperate classes these are different roles of the same base class. If they had gone with warlord or barbarian as the base for the two-handed weapon fighter things would be different. But as it stands the differences between the two classes are that of a prot warrior and an arms warrior in wow. Same class, different specs.
But we are seeing this with all the classes there really is only one and a half roles for each class to play. They are specs of certin classes not a class within it's self. This being very strongly focused on the fact that each class cannot switch out main weapon builds and cannot conform to vastly differnt roles such as a paladin in wow. Or the basic rogue in in d&d history with many paths and cross class or even cross role options.
So sadly if the nature of the post is that of "skill and playstyle" there is very little change from one rogue to the next or one fighter to the next just looking at the video's we are seeing now. Each class is limited into doing only what their roles are made for. We can't spec a cleric for tanking, or for dps. We can't spec a rogue for tanking (even tho the trailer video's sure show her tanking) Or can we spec a rogue for ranged combate.
Comments
If you rank it on a scale of 1 to 10 I expect 500 different answers
-First and foremost, character customization has always been Cryptic's thing. They took superhero customization and made it into an art form, almost literally, with CoX. Then, they made CoX look like playing with Barbies with Champions. After that, STO brought customization into a space where nobody thought it would fit, and they did it very well.
Now, they have almost done an about-face in this regard.
-Second, your first point pretty much boils down to "in order to deal with cookie-cutter, Flavor-of-the-Month builds, we need to make every class cookie-cutter." That doesn't sound like a solution at all. Also, keep in mind that the reason FOTM builds change is because people are trying new things out. In the original Guild Wars, I guarantee you my Ranger had little in common with any of the published builds, but was equally as effective in PvE.
-Third, I don't know of anyone who would say that a game that totally removes every hint of customization to maintain gameplay balance is a good game, or made by a talented team of developers.
Now, I can't say with any certainty as to whether or not NW will be a good game. That's beside my point here. My point is, there's no good argument to support a lack of customization in any modern RPG, whether it's based on DnD or not. There's no good excuse for it at all in a game based on DnD.
And, as a role player, I don't buy skill choice as a defining part of character attachment. Most role players play the concept regardless of the game mechanics since game mechanics almost never come into play in the middle of a role play scene. Just wait and see how many people ignore race and class in this game for the sake of 'role play' no matter what is offered. Suspension of disbelief is important, especially in an online game with no GM to micro manage things.
In the end I am actually more concerned with appearance customization than class. I think we need, and will get, a little more leeway than we are getting at this time for basic archetypes. So not all tanks will be sword and board for instance. But to me it is more important that my character look like my character than that he is a completely unique in build so long as what's offered mechanically works.
If the control wizard has set spells that everyone gets then it not going to matter who you party with at any time.
My Wizard from Icewind dale dosen't want magic missle I want spells like:
Illusory Ambush
Ray of Frost
Grasping Shadows
Freezing Cloud
Phanton Chasm
Feats like
Sneak of Shadows so I get a sneak with a ray attack
I mean a real control Wizard Slows and Immobilizes the hoards
Battlemages are the ones who want Magic missle massive dmg spells.
If spells are static then this is going to get boring real fast since there will be 200 Wizards all with the same spells.
As for unique builds, yeah, welcome to the world of power-gaming and copy-cat builds. It's a rampant thing that I don't think will go away. Almost all gaming systems can be min-maxed at some level. For a lot of people, this IS the game, to simply find and determine the most efficient builds.
None of that I mind, what kills me are people with copy-cat builds, claiming other people "don't play their class right" because they dare to do something a tad different than what google tells you to do. There's just an intolerance in gaming, that I'll never understand. There's just a segment of gamers that seem to be perpetually disgruntled and unhappy, yet continue to obsessively play.
I'd like to see MMOs break away from the tank/heal/DPS design. In fact, I welcome a game where there's NO healing. There's only recuperation between fighting. Perhaps that's too bizarre, but I'd like someone to toy with the construct, because all games seem to derive into the same general, very predictable formula.
It's why I continue to scoff at people who brag about how well they play MMOs. These games aren't hard. I've seen middle-school kids master them. They are however, a lot of fun, so sit back, relax and enjoy them.
Yeah, I'd like more unique builds out there. As a RPer I try to build to character concept, rather than statistical efficiency, but I too, sometimes can't resist easy min-max building.
My question is: what class/ability gets nerfed first? There's usually always one within two weeks of launch.
Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
I think I might has a heart attack, wait for it, wait for it, I agree with jedidethfreak823 on something.
Visually NWO is horrible for character creation as compared to CoX and CO. The first thing I noticed was the amazingly lacking choices in hair color.
Locked box keys are probably a bigger earner than all of those.
I think the part about viable builds is valid. There will be an overall consensus of what is the ideal build and people will follow that. Devs may tweak things then a new build emerges and on and on its the nature of the Internet. It is extremely difficult to create a huge variety of builds because something will always be the best.
Where game companies can do amazing things and for the most part hasn't been done full on is customization of the avatar. I like the costume wardrobe idea that has been toyed with but I still don't like that they are just costumes.
What I like is that gear is distinct and functional. It is fun to have your avatar decked out in cool looking yet functional gear. We may not have a huge variety of builds here but it would be a tun of fun to be able to feel unique through how we look. I don't mean unique because we bought a costume and we are low level pansies that look epic, but we look epic and are geared epic.
Extinction - GWF
I agree with this. Good post.
More hair, faces, bodies and such, I am all for that
To the point it should probably be regulated as gambling. (i.e. slot machines)
Races as well, but not in the sense of their inclusion, on in their large impact on game-play uber-relevance, if you understand what I mean. Should you want to discuss races and appearances I would gladly go into it in detail should that thread be created.
Thank you all for your compliance, noting to see here, just a gas-leak or the aurora borealis
I hate locked boxes, however they are not "gambling" any more than a huge number of other things in life are. Regulate trading card games too. MtG has been around for basically a decade and is exactly the same thing as locked boxes, D&D mini's as well as many other "gaming" things follow this same model.
There is a fixed number of each rarity of card on every sheet printed, etc.
Things like lock boxes can, in theory, NEVER pay out anything but the trash items, and nobody would ever know except the people in control. Meanwhile Jack and Jill are spending the BIG bucks, just knowing that the slot-machine will pay out if they just buy one more key.
Would I love to see a huge sandbox, with deep variation between classes, and the ability to just go crazy with being unique? Yes, and some day I have confidence I'll/we'll see that, but not yet.
If you simplify the system (like say chess) you can still get an infinite variety of how a game will play, but the system can't be "exploited" to maximize efficiency. Other than a very few standard opening moves, chess is very elegant that way, but it is an exception and not a rule.
Games that have heaps of configurations for statistical advantage, will eventually produce the math to find the maximum advantage, which is then copied by people who struggle with middle school algebra.
Thankfully, this is a class system at least, which puts firewalls on the types of builds you can make and pushes builds into niches within a team, rather than a skill system, which is almost always exploited. Ironically skill-based systems tend to produce less variance than class systems, the very thing they were allegedly designed to avoid.
But people won't pay for statistical advantage, or at least if it is made available to buy, gamers scream about "pay to win". I don't fully understand the problem, particularly since Magic the Gathering long established that it's not only a viable business model, gamers actually like it (despite griping). But I could be wrong here, I am not a competitive gamer, I'm a collaborative gamer. Even in competitive tabletop games that I play, it's the meta-game and social elements that entertain me most.
People will buy vanity items however and really to just an astounding degree. It's amazing how much people crave looking unique in a game. People scoff at it, but it truly works and most certainly helps games such as this fund and sustain themselves. It's often a role-play thing and if there's been any positive development in MMOs in the last two years, in my opinion, it's that gaming companies have woken up to the fact that RPers are a cash cow. We not only generally have lots of disposable income, but we apparently are quite happy to dispose of it, all for the sake of vanity and being a "unique snowflake" within a video game.
Thank a Carebear next time you see one, it's our sincere love of crafting unique characters, that are making F2P viable in the first place.
Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
While races like orc are already in the game and just need to be given player access. However it's the classes that are hurting, only 4 classes at the start is a very poor choice, and will lead to clone fever so bad. So untill they get off their back sides and get to work on the important things I fear Character Uniqueness will be a joke. I mean in beta all you saw were rogues, rogues and more rogues..... And only having 4 classes at lunch might do a ton of damage to long term retention.
But there are 5 classes available at launch, and 2 more already announced post launch (ranger and warlock I think). One is a caster, which makes me go YAY, but not knowing DnD in detail as a PnP (I know the swedish version, called Dragons & Deamons, original, I know
Edit
The last post (the one just above this one) informs me that the incessant talk about appearance that keeps getting in here, is a product from people adding their thoughts without reading the OP. I will state againe, the WoT in the OP is not about Appearance. But about skills costumization.
Ravenloft
Look for@Apocrs1980 or visit the main page here or Ravenloft here
I say at this point. I don't care about balance, even in PvP.
But still I need my character to be unique. But as far as I reckon, it is not much the choice of the proffession than the roleplay that make your character unique. To achieve that a game have to offer roleplay occasion that will have an impact on the world. Ie you need a game where killing monster is not important and quite rare.
That leads to the interest of various class or build or skill system (I prefer a one class fit all like the old chaosium system). If the only thing to do with your sill is to fight then I will agree with the OP, no need to make customization (unless the came is to be the best min-max but that would better fit a game where you design giant robot). If however social position is important, more important than killing monster, or if survival is important, then different skill will be an interesting way to customize your character and offer what other don't (like you have better survival skill in desert, useless in combat, but usefull for a party who want to travel the desert). To a lesser extend in one game a class can open portal and anyone can travel through them. This is not really useful in combat but some other activites it is a quick way to the end.
I think the problem is that the only activity offer in MMORPG is combat. Therefore what make a fighter different from another fighter when training (everyone at max level) and abilities (abilities are not random) are the same : the gear. The skill will actually be somewhat the same in real life (example the gladiator, btw arena combat balance result in less than optimum gear very different from the legionnaire outfit).
If we want variety and so uniqueness, we need too that it is difficult to have all the skill avialable to one character and that acquiring non combat skill can be as useful.
Bottom line, in Arabel (NWN private server) my character was unique because it was the only one selling on the market and because she made a big used of summoning a giant spider that she called "pepette" otherwise her spells was quite cookie cuter (improved invisibility, magic missille en masse...)
Skanvak Drakken
http://lamaisondesdrakkens.clan-box.com/index.php
Well when the title says what it says and takes the very "minor" view of the title instead of the more common version of what people think about tells me there is something wrong with the posting of the thread.
That said about the whole class thing, there are 4 not 5 at launch, becuase 2 of the classes are based of the same base class. This is not seperate classes these are different roles of the same base class. If they had gone with warlord or barbarian as the base for the two-handed weapon fighter things would be different. But as it stands the differences between the two classes are that of a prot warrior and an arms warrior in wow. Same class, different specs.
But we are seeing this with all the classes there really is only one and a half roles for each class to play. They are specs of certin classes not a class within it's self. This being very strongly focused on the fact that each class cannot switch out main weapon builds and cannot conform to vastly differnt roles such as a paladin in wow. Or the basic rogue in in d&d history with many paths and cross class or even cross role options.
So sadly if the nature of the post is that of "skill and playstyle" there is very little change from one rogue to the next or one fighter to the next just looking at the video's we are seeing now. Each class is limited into doing only what their roles are made for. We can't spec a cleric for tanking, or for dps. We can't spec a rogue for tanking (even tho the trailer video's sure show her tanking) Or can we spec a rogue for ranged combate.