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How important is character uniqueness? - discussion
spellwarden
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 357 Bounty Hunter
Ok, so heaps upon heaps of people come into any RPG gaming from the background of compleatly controlling the direction of their characters. PnP is the king in this respect. And to many it seems it is a selling-point to be able to create a unique character, one that has personality and in some respect differ from all other characters.
While I understand that defining an identity is an integral part in human cognition, and therefore the draw of such mechanics. I have to ask:
Is it really that important?
Now, please read on before you argue against me.
Point 1:Ever since I started playing RPG's, one of the defining aspects has been costumization, and therefore also the ability to learn the system. Baldurs gate was a great example. I restarted characters because if I lowered INT with 1 point, and put it into DEX, I could use this and that item. And this was fun, alot of fun. I compared with my friends and discussed different mechanics. BG2 we did a Ranger/Mage dual-class, that meant we had energy-shield, 2 weapons, buffs and heaps of dmg-bonus and THAC0-bonus.
Then came the internet.
Builds are tested, posted, and duplicated. the latest Diablo-game (D3) is a super-example of my point here. Eventually there where really only 3 viable builds. One for kiting that where used before you had enough gold to get the good gear. One for arcane DPS, which was viable if you farmed certain areas, but not others, and Critical Mass/Wicked Wind build for when you had enough gold to get the right gear. So all these spells, all this costumization that would allow for diverse builds where tossed away because they eventually became less attractive. Also, the fun of Wizzards dissapeared. It became face-rolling in the sense that you headbanged like a parkinsons patient.
So here I would suggest this, allow the devs to create a class, that plays like intended, and if you want a different experience, create a new class. I gladly sacrifice individuality for balance and game-play enjoyment.
Point 2: Now, I understand that there is a Role-Play aspect that has to be adressed. Some want the control, not to find the best build, but to role-play, to be immersed. Sword-mage, Stealth-warrior etc. And I accept that it is one of the best parts of RPG's. But I think that we have to ask ourselves, what is most important, what do we want to prioritize. As the devs have stated somewhere (cannot remember) many want unlimited options, but once they get it, it turns out that they don't enjoy the game which is the result of such freedom of choice. And I agree. PnP, or maby TES (skyrim, not the online game... I am skeptical that TES can feasibly become an MMO without loosing what makes it TES). So while this is certainly a perspective to be respected, I feel that it is a task not suited for an MMO, therefore I look for other venues to get that experience.
Summary: All in all, I think that the 5 classes present seem to be fun and distinct. While I would like to have endless options, I value gameplay and balance much, much higher.
Whats your opinion... oh and sorry about the WoT
While I understand that defining an identity is an integral part in human cognition, and therefore the draw of such mechanics. I have to ask:
Is it really that important?
Now, please read on before you argue against me.
Point 1:Ever since I started playing RPG's, one of the defining aspects has been costumization, and therefore also the ability to learn the system. Baldurs gate was a great example. I restarted characters because if I lowered INT with 1 point, and put it into DEX, I could use this and that item. And this was fun, alot of fun. I compared with my friends and discussed different mechanics. BG2 we did a Ranger/Mage dual-class, that meant we had energy-shield, 2 weapons, buffs and heaps of dmg-bonus and THAC0-bonus.
Then came the internet.
Builds are tested, posted, and duplicated. the latest Diablo-game (D3) is a super-example of my point here. Eventually there where really only 3 viable builds. One for kiting that where used before you had enough gold to get the good gear. One for arcane DPS, which was viable if you farmed certain areas, but not others, and Critical Mass/Wicked Wind build for when you had enough gold to get the right gear. So all these spells, all this costumization that would allow for diverse builds where tossed away because they eventually became less attractive. Also, the fun of Wizzards dissapeared. It became face-rolling in the sense that you headbanged like a parkinsons patient.
So here I would suggest this, allow the devs to create a class, that plays like intended, and if you want a different experience, create a new class. I gladly sacrifice individuality for balance and game-play enjoyment.
Point 2: Now, I understand that there is a Role-Play aspect that has to be adressed. Some want the control, not to find the best build, but to role-play, to be immersed. Sword-mage, Stealth-warrior etc. And I accept that it is one of the best parts of RPG's. But I think that we have to ask ourselves, what is most important, what do we want to prioritize. As the devs have stated somewhere (cannot remember) many want unlimited options, but once they get it, it turns out that they don't enjoy the game which is the result of such freedom of choice. And I agree. PnP, or maby TES (skyrim, not the online game... I am skeptical that TES can feasibly become an MMO without loosing what makes it TES). So while this is certainly a perspective to be respected, I feel that it is a task not suited for an MMO, therefore I look for other venues to get that experience.
Summary: All in all, I think that the 5 classes present seem to be fun and distinct. While I would like to have endless options, I value gameplay and balance much, much higher.
Whats your opinion... oh and sorry about the WoT
Post edited by spellwarden on
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If you rank it on a scale of 1 to 10 I expect 500 different answers
-First and foremost, character customization has always been Cryptic's thing. They took superhero customization and made it into an art form, almost literally, with CoX. Then, they made CoX look like playing with Barbies with Champions. After that, STO brought customization into a space where nobody thought it would fit, and they did it very well.
Now, they have almost done an about-face in this regard.
-Second, your first point pretty much boils down to "in order to deal with cookie-cutter, Flavor-of-the-Month builds, we need to make every class cookie-cutter." That doesn't sound like a solution at all. Also, keep in mind that the reason FOTM builds change is because people are trying new things out. In the original Guild Wars, I guarantee you my Ranger had little in common with any of the published builds, but was equally as effective in PvE.
-Third, I don't know of anyone who would say that a game that totally removes every hint of customization to maintain gameplay balance is a good game, or made by a talented team of developers.
Now, I can't say with any certainty as to whether or not NW will be a good game. That's beside my point here. My point is, there's no good argument to support a lack of customization in any modern RPG, whether it's based on DnD or not. There's no good excuse for it at all in a game based on DnD.
And, as a role player, I don't buy skill choice as a defining part of character attachment. Most role players play the concept regardless of the game mechanics since game mechanics almost never come into play in the middle of a role play scene. Just wait and see how many people ignore race and class in this game for the sake of 'role play' no matter what is offered. Suspension of disbelief is important, especially in an online game with no GM to micro manage things.
In the end I am actually more concerned with appearance customization than class. I think we need, and will get, a little more leeway than we are getting at this time for basic archetypes. So not all tanks will be sword and board for instance. But to me it is more important that my character look like my character than that he is a completely unique in build so long as what's offered mechanically works.
If the control wizard has set spells that everyone gets then it not going to matter who you party with at any time.
My Wizard from Icewind dale dosen't want magic missle I want spells like:
Illusory Ambush
Ray of Frost
Grasping Shadows
Freezing Cloud
Phanton Chasm
Feats like
Sneak of Shadows so I get a sneak with a ray attack
I mean a real control Wizard Slows and Immobilizes the hoards
Battlemages are the ones who want Magic missle massive dmg spells.
If spells are static then this is going to get boring real fast since there will be 200 Wizards all with the same spells.
As for unique builds, yeah, welcome to the world of power-gaming and copy-cat builds. It's a rampant thing that I don't think will go away. Almost all gaming systems can be min-maxed at some level. For a lot of people, this IS the game, to simply find and determine the most efficient builds.
None of that I mind, what kills me are people with copy-cat builds, claiming other people "don't play their class right" because they dare to do something a tad different than what google tells you to do. There's just an intolerance in gaming, that I'll never understand. There's just a segment of gamers that seem to be perpetually disgruntled and unhappy, yet continue to obsessively play.
I'd like to see MMOs break away from the tank/heal/DPS design. In fact, I welcome a game where there's NO healing. There's only recuperation between fighting. Perhaps that's too bizarre, but I'd like someone to toy with the construct, because all games seem to derive into the same general, very predictable formula.
It's why I continue to scoff at people who brag about how well they play MMOs. These games aren't hard. I've seen middle-school kids master them. They are however, a lot of fun, so sit back, relax and enjoy them.
Yeah, I'd like more unique builds out there. As a RPer I try to build to character concept, rather than statistical efficiency, but I too, sometimes can't resist easy min-max building.
My question is: what class/ability gets nerfed first? There's usually always one within two weeks of launch.
Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
I think I might has a heart attack, wait for it, wait for it, I agree with jedidethfreak823 on something.
Visually NWO is horrible for character creation as compared to CoX and CO. The first thing I noticed was the amazingly lacking choices in hair color.
Locked box keys are probably a bigger earner than all of those.
I think the part about viable builds is valid. There will be an overall consensus of what is the ideal build and people will follow that. Devs may tweak things then a new build emerges and on and on its the nature of the Internet. It is extremely difficult to create a huge variety of builds because something will always be the best.
Where game companies can do amazing things and for the most part hasn't been done full on is customization of the avatar. I like the costume wardrobe idea that has been toyed with but I still don't like that they are just costumes.
What I like is that gear is distinct and functional. It is fun to have your avatar decked out in cool looking yet functional gear. We may not have a huge variety of builds here but it would be a tun of fun to be able to feel unique through how we look. I don't mean unique because we bought a costume and we are low level pansies that look epic, but we look epic and are geared epic.
Extinction - GWF
I agree with this. Good post.
More hair, faces, bodies and such, I am all for that
To the point it should probably be regulated as gambling. (i.e. slot machines)
Races as well, but not in the sense of their inclusion, on in their large impact on game-play uber-relevance, if you understand what I mean. Should you want to discuss races and appearances I would gladly go into it in detail should that thread be created.
Thank you all for your compliance, noting to see here, just a gas-leak or the aurora borealis
I hate locked boxes, however they are not "gambling" any more than a huge number of other things in life are. Regulate trading card games too. MtG has been around for basically a decade and is exactly the same thing as locked boxes, D&D mini's as well as many other "gaming" things follow this same model.
There is a fixed number of each rarity of card on every sheet printed, etc.
Things like lock boxes can, in theory, NEVER pay out anything but the trash items, and nobody would ever know except the people in control. Meanwhile Jack and Jill are spending the BIG bucks, just knowing that the slot-machine will pay out if they just buy one more key.
Would I love to see a huge sandbox, with deep variation between classes, and the ability to just go crazy with being unique? Yes, and some day I have confidence I'll/we'll see that, but not yet.
If you simplify the system (like say chess) you can still get an infinite variety of how a game will play, but the system can't be "exploited" to maximize efficiency. Other than a very few standard opening moves, chess is very elegant that way, but it is an exception and not a rule.
Games that have heaps of configurations for statistical advantage, will eventually produce the math to find the maximum advantage, which is then copied by people who struggle with middle school algebra.
Thankfully, this is a class system at least, which puts firewalls on the types of builds you can make and pushes builds into niches within a team, rather than a skill system, which is almost always exploited. Ironically skill-based systems tend to produce less variance than class systems, the very thing they were allegedly designed to avoid.
But people won't pay for statistical advantage, or at least if it is made available to buy, gamers scream about "pay to win". I don't fully understand the problem, particularly since Magic the Gathering long established that it's not only a viable business model, gamers actually like it (despite griping). But I could be wrong here, I am not a competitive gamer, I'm a collaborative gamer. Even in competitive tabletop games that I play, it's the meta-game and social elements that entertain me most.
People will buy vanity items however and really to just an astounding degree. It's amazing how much people crave looking unique in a game. People scoff at it, but it truly works and most certainly helps games such as this fund and sustain themselves. It's often a role-play thing and if there's been any positive development in MMOs in the last two years, in my opinion, it's that gaming companies have woken up to the fact that RPers are a cash cow. We not only generally have lots of disposable income, but we apparently are quite happy to dispose of it, all for the sake of vanity and being a "unique snowflake" within a video game.
Thank a Carebear next time you see one, it's our sincere love of crafting unique characters, that are making F2P viable in the first place.
Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
While races like orc are already in the game and just need to be given player access. However it's the classes that are hurting, only 4 classes at the start is a very poor choice, and will lead to clone fever so bad. So untill they get off their back sides and get to work on the important things I fear Character Uniqueness will be a joke. I mean in beta all you saw were rogues, rogues and more rogues..... And only having 4 classes at lunch might do a ton of damage to long term retention.
But there are 5 classes available at launch, and 2 more already announced post launch (ranger and warlock I think). One is a caster, which makes me go YAY, but not knowing DnD in detail as a PnP (I know the swedish version, called Dragons & Deamons, original, I know
Edit
The last post (the one just above this one) informs me that the incessant talk about appearance that keeps getting in here, is a product from people adding their thoughts without reading the OP. I will state againe, the WoT in the OP is not about Appearance. But about skills costumization.
Ravenloft
Look for@Apocrs1980 or visit the main page here or Ravenloft here
I say at this point. I don't care about balance, even in PvP.
But still I need my character to be unique. But as far as I reckon, it is not much the choice of the proffession than the roleplay that make your character unique. To achieve that a game have to offer roleplay occasion that will have an impact on the world. Ie you need a game where killing monster is not important and quite rare.
That leads to the interest of various class or build or skill system (I prefer a one class fit all like the old chaosium system). If the only thing to do with your sill is to fight then I will agree with the OP, no need to make customization (unless the came is to be the best min-max but that would better fit a game where you design giant robot). If however social position is important, more important than killing monster, or if survival is important, then different skill will be an interesting way to customize your character and offer what other don't (like you have better survival skill in desert, useless in combat, but usefull for a party who want to travel the desert). To a lesser extend in one game a class can open portal and anyone can travel through them. This is not really useful in combat but some other activites it is a quick way to the end.
I think the problem is that the only activity offer in MMORPG is combat. Therefore what make a fighter different from another fighter when training (everyone at max level) and abilities (abilities are not random) are the same : the gear. The skill will actually be somewhat the same in real life (example the gladiator, btw arena combat balance result in less than optimum gear very different from the legionnaire outfit).
If we want variety and so uniqueness, we need too that it is difficult to have all the skill avialable to one character and that acquiring non combat skill can be as useful.
Bottom line, in Arabel (NWN private server) my character was unique because it was the only one selling on the market and because she made a big used of summoning a giant spider that she called "pepette" otherwise her spells was quite cookie cuter (improved invisibility, magic missille en masse...)
Skanvak Drakken
http://lamaisondesdrakkens.clan-box.com/index.php
Well when the title says what it says and takes the very "minor" view of the title instead of the more common version of what people think about tells me there is something wrong with the posting of the thread.
That said about the whole class thing, there are 4 not 5 at launch, becuase 2 of the classes are based of the same base class. This is not seperate classes these are different roles of the same base class. If they had gone with warlord or barbarian as the base for the two-handed weapon fighter things would be different. But as it stands the differences between the two classes are that of a prot warrior and an arms warrior in wow. Same class, different specs.
But we are seeing this with all the classes there really is only one and a half roles for each class to play. They are specs of certin classes not a class within it's self. This being very strongly focused on the fact that each class cannot switch out main weapon builds and cannot conform to vastly differnt roles such as a paladin in wow. Or the basic rogue in in d&d history with many paths and cross class or even cross role options.
So sadly if the nature of the post is that of "skill and playstyle" there is very little change from one rogue to the next or one fighter to the next just looking at the video's we are seeing now. Each class is limited into doing only what their roles are made for. We can't spec a cleric for tanking, or for dps. We can't spec a rogue for tanking (even tho the trailer video's sure show her tanking) Or can we spec a rogue for ranged combate.