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STO developments make me concerned.
lyfebane
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 312 Bounty Hunter
Why do games seem to start fine but seem to spiral down to grind? STO is an example, I played it on and off for a while now since it went no subscription, and leveling was fun, end game was ok not to grindy to get new stuff if slight lacking in amount of content. Then, as it seems unfortunately with most mmo, it has now changed to grind central. You now need to grind space stations, but that was not enough apparently, you now have a grind an embassy I will assume after that they make something else to build for constant grind. On top of this they now make you grind factions, 2 of then for items. Not only is this grind they make you pay for it by needing items you can get from drops but to get the amount needed really need to buy. It all boils down to.....work, I am working in a game. I hate that, I do not play games to work. I had thought to put some money into it, but this latest episode changed my mind quick. I am not paying to work in a game. Some people might but I and a i think a lot of people will not.
Please do not let NWO go down that way. I do not mind working towards stuff, but it should not feel like work. It should allow you to work on say a faction by doing what you want to do in the game, be that crafting, exploring, dungeon etc? Not by having to do a daily mind numbing quest *infinity. If you are thinking to implement factions like you did in STO, do not! It is the worst way I know. STO has just lost money because of this, and from reading the chat spam, other are doing the same.
Better way is to find items everywhere for faction, ie you craft them, you find them get crafting items (however that done), you find them in any dungeon you do, you find them by exploring maps, or doing quest! just do not make an area you have to do mind numbing daily quest and gather massive amounts of stuff, its boring and feels like working.
Please do not let NWO go down that way. I do not mind working towards stuff, but it should not feel like work. It should allow you to work on say a faction by doing what you want to do in the game, be that crafting, exploring, dungeon etc? Not by having to do a daily mind numbing quest *infinity. If you are thinking to implement factions like you did in STO, do not! It is the worst way I know. STO has just lost money because of this, and from reading the chat spam, other are doing the same.
Better way is to find items everywhere for faction, ie you craft them, you find them get crafting items (however that done), you find them in any dungeon you do, you find them by exploring maps, or doing quest! just do not make an area you have to do mind numbing daily quest and gather massive amounts of stuff, its boring and feels like working.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] I am not evil, I am just cursed.
Post edited by lyfebane on
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REPENT THE END IS NIGH
Personally, I am hopeful that the Foundry will offer opportunities for people to continue to play the game even after they reach end game. If we can build a busy, fun, community around the Foundry, I think we'll be able to help avoid some of the need for that Grind mentality.
What you're asking is very unrealistic - new content daily, from launch until the end of the game's existence? Sure, there's a cycle in there that dev's will make content if people keep playing (paying) and vice versa. But if a game only lasts, say, 4 years (an MMO nevertheless), you're expecting them to make you something from the kindness of their virtuous hearts, something unique and different, not grindy, but top quality for the next 1460 days straight (and still, that's only 1 new quest a day).
The tough reality is, games end somewhere, and it's usually at the end of a money trail. The difference with NWO is that at least they're giving the users the tools to make additional content, too! So don't just ask and ask and threaten to leave, but give something back. If you have great ideas about endgame content, make it. You might actually see that real work is being done purely for other peoples' entertainment. These guys need a Christmas, too, y'know.
The foundry is one of key features which will affect the long term success of the game. I hope one of their focuses post launch is making sure that the foundry continues to evolve giving DMs more options to customize their content. It looks pretty robust from the vids I saw but I also saw some definite areas for improvement.
Firstly I never said anything about asking for new material/content every day. I am not even against working towards a goal, I just want it to be done in a way that does not force you to do repetitive activities that you might not want or like doing. There are ways to put in content that requires time to do without forcing you to do one particular thing. Also never did i threaten to leave, I just wont pay money for this type of thing when I have a choice, which I do. Whether I keep playing STO I am not sure I will give it some time to see if any changes occur. AlL i ask if that in NWO they do it some other way. Which leads to the next quote.
After some thought I came to this conclusion too, I like doing the story arcs in STO, yet find the foundry fairly uninteresting. The reason being that you get no end quest reward. Now in NWo I know it is slightly different as they have dungeon chests, so that along helps, but I think set end rewards would be nice, so a reward creator might be something to add to foundry. Presumably there are rules for devs to make items surely this can be used to item from foundry?
Oh, and if you could provide a link showing the loss of money Lyfebane, it could help sway opinions.
While I thinking about it, if they have guild housing and ranks, do not do them where you need thousands of stuff and credit to built, it should be again just by doing what you would normally do, adventure! such as a % of your exp goes to guild exp or something like that.
Grind is somthing natural in mmo games it's somthing that keep people on high lvls because it give reason to keep playin tha game and also awards those who do that. I know it make everyone people angry thinking "it will take me 2 months to get that" but when you get it you will feel awarded.
Grind doesn't need to be boring the two main problems of game developers is a) award for grinding is not worth your time and b) there is only one or two high lvl locations for grind so killing same monsters over and over is boring.
Also mobs AI makes game more enjoyable and should punish player for making mistakes. I hope that cryptic will work on that because i have I saw way better mobs AI in "Gothic" which is over ten years old than what we saw on that video from Paris.
My work: Heroes Blacksmith - Library
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?21051-Heroes-Blacksmith-Library
Now, I'm sure there'll be some equipment grind too, but let's hope they go this route instead.
That's really apples and oranges, IMO. Not all games have to build their mechanics around complex monster AI. There are tons of action and action-RPG games that don't emphasize this and are still great, fun to play, and are even considered cult classics. Besides, I think a minority of players would actually prefer to be playing something like Demon Souls or Risen in a MMO environment. There's also a good chance that this would lead the game to focus too much on action and less on story/environment/exploration, which would be fine for a Monster Hunter-like game, but not so much for NWO.
Not to mention it really detracts from the immersion when you notice cheesy alterations to game mechanics to compensate for terrible AI. Like enemy casters given infinite SP to make up for poor spell choices, or boosted HP to compensate for not knowing to stay away from the melees.
As a side note I really would prefer my Dungeons and Dragons MMO to feel just as challenging and engaging as any single player dungeon delve experience I can get.
I appreciate your perspective, but for me, grind is bad. When all I have left to do in a game is do something repetitive so that I can get an upgrade to some gear or some such, that's when I call it quits in a game. I know I am probably a minority, but I do represent some portion of the population. I will always prefer more story as opposed to "dailies" and other such grindy type things.
I don't think you're in as much of a minority as you think. I think most gamers don't enjoy grind, but most games have enough content that these players can keep playing without grinding. I actually speculate that what makes WoW so successful is that a player can just pick up a new race/class combo and have a good deal of "new" content to play before they have to repeat content. Yes WoW has grind, no doubt about it, but it has options to avoid the grind so that it is not the only thing players can do at end-game. In STO there is little difference in game experience from lvl 1 (or lvl 20 for Klinks) so once you've run a Fed and a Klingon to end-game there is little motivation to roll new toons, unless you're a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> like me
NW will certainly be offering different classes and races, but I'm not sure how different their experiences will be so end-game becomes even more important.
This is actually where SWTOR failed too, sure you have class story, but there just wasn't enough of it to keep people to not notice the repetitive gaming experience.
This may have already been addressed but to define "grind": an activity that is repetitive and boring. Repetitive and boring tasks are not fun.
Now that may be subjective, one person may find an activity interesting while another may find it boring, but there is a general consensus on what is and what is not considered grinding.
However, I completely agree with you on the AI spectrum. For instance, I quit PSO2 because the only thing they did to make enemies tougher on higher difficulties is increase health and damage, and by that time you yourself would have increased health and damage as well. Now THAT is a grind.
well i am afraid this is most likely going to happen in NWO. in STO they have several difficulty levels. Unfortunately enemy mobs don t get smarter or are able to use their powers more efficiently....no....they only have more hit points and do more damage...so for the same enemy it can take you 5 or 30min to beat...
I would have to say I disagree with that assessment. Most console or single player games have enough content to avoid the grind but only because those games themselves are short term games.
Take for instance the hordes of firt person shooters, the only reason they exist longer than a month is for their online competitive play. Years of developement boil down to a few days of a campaign if they are lucky and months of online comeptitive, yet to a point redundant, play. These games come and go as newer games are released and it's almost like a cycle, each new release gets it's time on the pedastal and is eventually knocked down by the next new advancement.
While some players may have their personal favorites most times these games are simply replaced like computer parts as new technology is released.
Grinds are avoided in these games from two main features. First, their time in the spotlight is short term and are almost designed with this in expectation. The grinds implemented, if any, are mild and not intended to keep players playing longer. Secondly the games themselves are almost laughable to be considered story games. While you may play FPS Games and enjoy the storylines, I know I have, those games are PvP Games through and through. Arguably a quarter of the playerbases don't even play the campaigns and jump straight into multiplayer combat. PvP itself is a break in redundancy because no matter how well you program AI a true player will always be far more of a challenge.
Ultimately these games come and go. Players really don't loose anything from not playing so effortlessly move on to the next title with little regret.
However my main point is that those games which avoid grinds are different in every way from any MMO. MMO's only exist as long as the players stay and the amount of content most MMO's give can not give enough play time for players.
Your claims of WoW lacking a grind is the exact opposite from everything I have heard. In fact most people I know which play that game do so only when a new exansion comes out. They beat everything in the expansions within a few weeks, last a few weeks longer, get bored of the grind and go back again when the next expansion is released.
Grinds and MMO's will likely always be entwind but UGC is a huge step in the right direction to limit grinds and the mistakes with STO's UGC are not being remade.
Grinds in the extreme sense are bad and from what I have heard of STO recently I can't say it's something I would enjoy or want put into NW but many grinds I see, even those which players hate, I see as a challenge. If I can get everything in a short period of time I don't view that as a challenge so having to put time inot anything isn't directly a bad thing. I feel many grinds which I have heard complaints on in various games are more player issues than game issues. It's almost like people grew up screaming like Varuka Salt 'I want it now!' and forget some things have to take time to earn.
In any case I do hope Cryptic will provide us with enough class and race variety to prevent implementing major grinds in order to keep us playing and UGC Technology will hopefully allow endless player content and I would hope Cryptic continues to also put out quest and dungeon content themselves.
There's a huge bright future for NW with the tools we have. I don't forsee a major grinding situation coming out of this game, no more than NWN at least. NW will not in any way be a repeat of STO, it's in every way an improvement.
That being said I want to address this:
One thing that concerns me is actually that STO has gotten more grind based since PWE took over. There was very little content in STO at launch, especially if you played the Klingon side, but the Featured Episode path that they were taking was adding new content, but those appear to have taken a back seat to Season updates, which are only adding more grind. Grind for Starbases, grinf for faction standing, grind for dilithium, grind for Raid gear. More dailies and as a result more grind. I really hope this is avoided with NW, it is the one thing I fear about the development.
All game companies are businesses and are in it too make profits.
On one hand this is not a bad thing as it puts the whole how much you want to pay in our hands.
But on the other hand without a monthly sub coming in somehow they still need to get that profit.
The main way is by temptation making the special items either in store or via some form of lock box ( I sincerely hope not the latter.)
so shiny and tempting at least a sizeable percentage of players will want them and pay cash for them.
And or add some cashy means such as the dilithium exchange in STO.
To short cut the grind for the impatient and for people who cannot spend the time grinding but who still want to contribute to the inevitable guild houses etc.
So I see no way for the grind not to be in game to some degree.
But we are all more than able to make a choice as to how we want to play the game.
If the grind is there it will be much more refined than STO as Cryptic/PWE will have their metrics on player spending/playing data by the time NW goes live courtesy of CO and STO and so make any grind far more palatable for us.
Personally in STO I love the foundry missions that and the social aspect are what keeps me logging on.
The new systems cryptic have put in such as fleets/embassy/reputation I can take or leave them and I often do :-)
And as much as I am looking forward to playing the NW game.
Its the foundry I am looking forward to getting my hands on the most.
Being able to bring my own missions from my pnp days to share and enjoying other authors missions.
These will supply all the end game missions I will ever want and I wont ever have to bother with any grinding.
On the hardness of mobs to some degree , specially from clips we have seen one way to make mobs harder would be just to speed up their actions, most we see are slow, make that movement speed more like the speed a person would move and the difficulty will increase. Though obviously if they can make good AI that helps too.
as an edit i thought i post and idea i would not consider grind, in every dungeon or dungeon chest you get tokens or fragments, these can be collected together and used to make/buy nice items. Reason this does not feel like a grind is because it is doing what you would want to do in the game, dungeon running, that's just one idea but there are others .