Latest NeverWinter novel raises concern

xilix69 · September 2012

So having finished reading the latest installment of Salvatore's Neverwinter series, concerns over fundamentals WoTC is changing are mounting.

So far we have had a Drow male cleric and Succubi are now Devils instead of Demons.

At a quick glance, these may not seem like monumental changes. Take a moment to think about it.

Lolth would NEVER grant devine power to a male. No Priestess would ever allow a lowly male to rise to such an exalted position. That would change everything in Drow society.

Succubi are now Devils unders service to Glasya in Hell? Really? How did that happen?
Does that mean Alu-Demons & Cambion, both a product of unions between human men & Succubi, are now 1/2 Devils? No longer are they agents of chaos & destruction, but want things to be structured & orderly, albeit controlled?

These are but 2 examples of /facepalm coming out of WoTC.

sirsitsalot · September 2012

It's all just pixels...

I'm not really going to worry about all this HAMSTER when I am playing the game. If the story is compelling, and I have fun, then that is all I care about. Now if they start contradicting themselves in the middle of their story, I'll take notice. But I don't care how this or that is portrayed from one edition to the next. Just be consistant within the context of the story you are telling NOW.

vindicon · September 2012

xilix69 wrote: »

Lolth would NEVER grant devine power to a male. No Priestess would ever allow a lowly male to rise to such an exalted position. That would change everything in Drow society.

Why would Lolth not grant power to a male? She's the goddess of Chaos, not of Feminism... in fact, she'd just love to see the quarels that would ensue with the rise of a male cleric. That's what she constantly does - she plants seeds of chaos among the Drow society, or helps them grow. And then she just sits back and watches the spectacle.
Just imagine how much chaos would come out of a possible male uprising against the female leadership... Oh, the Queen would adore it, let me assure you...

Also, 4e has already changed these into these... Changing a random race of Infernal monsters from demons to devils is insignificant compaired to this...

stormdrag0n · September 2012

You might want to put spoilers in your title not everyone has read that novel yet.

argoylet · September 2012

There used to be male drow clerics, they were just associated with Vhaeraun or another drow god, rather than Lolth. However I don't recall there being a male drow cleric of any sort in the latest book. The male drow spellcasters in the last book were mages/sorcerers.

Regardless the War of the Spider Queen series saw Lolth recommit herself to representing chaos and the destruction of several of the other drow gods. It would make sense that she would step in and fill the vaccuum, and stir up trouble, by accepting male clerics.

I'd be more concerned with what the upcoming Sundering means for Neverwinter. The plan was to have the game somewhat up to date with the pnp setting, but I think wotc just threw a wrench in the works. The Sundering probably wouldn't impact the local Neverwinter area, but if they've developed content that ranges away from the area, that content is likely to be outdated by next summer when the first Sundering books start coming out.

xilix69 · September 2012

Lolth's clergy have always been female, not male. Not only would Lolth not allow it, but the Matriarchy of Drow society wouldn't allow it either. Granted, the male cleric, (can't find his name atm in the Sellswords series), was a member of Bregan D'earthe & Jarlaxle may hide him just to spite the matriarchs, but they do in effect work for House Baenre. If Matron Quenthal even heard a whisper of a male cleric, she would stop at nothing to uncover & destroy him. That conflict would not be profitable for Jarlaxle & hence not worth the trouble.
Yes, during the War of the Spider Queen, Lolth initiated events to further chaos, but she she did so by w/holding her divine blessings from her clergy.

Next thing we'll have Driders, who have always been exclusively male, breeding & reproducing.

I'm involved in the playtesting of 5E & the changes I see are nothing short of /facepalm

vindicon · September 2012

xilix69 wrote: »

...Not only would Lolth not allow it...

Again, why would she not allow it? Lolth has never had any particular grudge or distrust against males, and there's no lore that I could find that suggests otherwise. It's just how things came to be in the Drow society - females sent to become priests, males sent to become warriors or mages. It could as well have been the other way round - the inequality between the 2 sexes is part of what drives the chaos in the Drow society, but should she find a reason to turn things around, or upside-down, be assured she would do it in a heartbeat...

xilix69 wrote: »

but the Matriarchy of Drow society wouldn't allow it either.

The hierarchy in the Drow society is driven by power and by Lolth's will. If a male cleric emerged, with the favor of the Queen, and strong powers bestowed by her, the female leaders of the clergy of Lolth would not be able to do a thing to him, for fear of facing the wrath of the Queen of Spiders herself.
You have to understand, the Drow will take every last opportunity to abuse and backstab their fellows in order to accomodate their selfish, but they would NEVER, EVER go against the will of Lolth as long as they're still faithful in her. The moment the Queen judges them unworthy of her favor, they will most likely perish along with their whole House (see house Do'Urden for example)... If Lolth wishes it, ANYTHING can happen amongst the Drow.
Also, even if male clerics are againsts Lolth's immediate will, it doesn't matter. Lolth doesn't care, Lolth doesn't give a damn... remember, this is the same Lolth that, after slaying a godess that was trying to start a rebellion against her, assumed her portfolio and under her mask supplied divine magic to the rebels herself.
Lolth doesn't have any big evil plans, strict rules or overly important agendas. She doesn't even harm people who were not asking for it. She just likes fooling around with the Drow, that is all. Guess that gives her a cute, childlike side. Or that could just be me...

pilf3r · September 2012

Demihuman Deities (2E), p. 31:

The clergy of Lolth includes dark elves (94%) and chitines (6%). Of the dark elves, 96% are female; there are male priests of Lolth (4%), but the Spider Queen very rarely allows them to rise above 7th level of experience

Faiths and Pantheons (3E), p. 40:

Clerics of Lolth pray for spells after waking from trance or before retiring to trance. They are always female.

In 4E, all priests must undergo the rite of investiture (at least from what i have been able to find out without actually owning any 4e books) with a group of clergy to essentially start them on the path of priesthood i believe and as such with the clergy being predominately female that might be difficult.

Lloth was also known as Araushnee and consort to Corellon Larethian but she tried to murder him for power and was defeated by Angharradh. Corellon looked upon his consorts betrayal and cursed her stripping her of her divinity and turning her into a tanar'ri and banished her to the Abyss.

Look under "history" http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/DnDWiki:Lolth#History

Once you know this history it becomes rather clear Lloth has an intense dislike for males seeing what Corellon did to her and as such explains why she runs a matriarchy.

Unlike what the previous poster states Lloths true driving force is power, hate and revenge. The way she runs the drows society is all aimed at keeping control of it because of the power she derives from it so she can attain her higher goals. The things that drive her do seep down into drow society though so males as a ruling force is highly unlikely unless they are renegades or heretics so to speak.

argoylet · September 2012

Rai-guy Bondalek is the cleric/wizard you're thinking of. He is originally from Ched Nasad, but was exiled and taken in by Jarlaxle. Perhaps he was exiled for claiming to be a cleric of Lolth?

Once he meets Jarlaxle he would have been protected and likely any association with Lolth hidden, but even if it were known by the Matrons, there is Jarlaxles protected status to consider. Jarlaxle is considered by many as one of Lolth's favorites and she has acted on his behalf before.

Regardless of what the Matron's may feel, Lolth's primary portfolio is chaos. If claims she favors a matriarchal society and declares only females may become her clerics, her next action almost has to be to throw a wrench in the works and watch everyone dance. Besides which Salvatore introduced the character himself, and since he is the grand pappy of the Torils drow, he would be the authority on the subject.

As for female driders, there have always been female driders, they are just much more rare.

surf13 · September 2012

The new changes to The Realms fiction is WotC gearing up for the new edition "D&D Next".

This is The SUndering and was discussed in depth by a WotC team at GenCon. It's on their YouTube feed in two parts - part 1 and part 2.

iamtruthseeker · September 2012

And what happens when Lolth supports all sides and lets the winner prevail?

Oh, wait, that's good ole chaotic vengeful backstabbing evil Lolth.

Yeah, see the Sundering for more info, and know this game won't have anything to do with this version; this game started when 4E was new and won't wait for Next two years later from now for playtestng to finish.

xilix69 wrote: »

Lolth's clergy have always been female, not male. Not only would Lolth not allow it, but the Matriarchy of Drow society wouldn't allow it either. Granted, the male cleric, (can't find his name atm in the Sellswords series), was a member of Bregan D'earthe & Jarlaxle may hide him just to spite the matriarchs, but they do in effect work for House Baenre. If Matron Quenthal even heard a whisper of a male cleric, she would stop at nothing to uncover & destroy him. That conflict would not be profitable for Jarlaxle & hence not worth the trouble.
Yes, during the War of the Spider Queen, Lolth initiated events to further chaos, but she she did so by w/holding her divine blessings from her clergy.

Next thing we'll have Driders, who have always been exclusively male, breeding & reproducing.

I'm involved in the playtesting of 5E & the changes I see are nothing short of /facepalm

pilf3r wrote: »

Demihuman Deities (2E), p. 31:

Faiths and Pantheons (3E), p. 40:

In 4E, all priests must undergo the rite of investiture (at least from what i have been able to find out without actually owning any 4e books) with a group of clergy to essentially start them on the path of priesthood i believe and as such with the clergy being predominately female that might be difficult.

Lloth was also known as Araushnee and consort to Corellon Larethian but she tried to murder him for power and was defeated by Angharradh. Corellon looked upon his consorts betrayal and cursed her stripping her of her divinity and turning her into a tanar'ri and banished her to the Abyss.

Look under "history" http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/DnDWiki:Lolth#History

Once you know this history it becomes rather clear Lloth has an intense dislike for males seeing what Corellon did to her and as such explains why she runs a matriarchy.

Unlike what the previous poster states Lloths true driving force is power, hate and revenge. The way she runs the drows society is all aimed at keeping control of it because of the power she derives from it so she can attain her higher goals. The things that drive her do seep down into drow society though so males as a ruling force is highly unlikely unless they are renegades or heretics so to speak.

surf13 wrote: »

The new changes to The Realms fiction is WotC gearing up for the new edition "D&D Next".

This is The SUndering and was discussed in depth by a WotC team at GenCon. It's on their YouTube feed in two parts - part 1 and part 2.

surf13 · September 2012

Although... Many more delays and Neverwinter might launch at the same time as Next

(joking, for those who can't read between the lines)

iamtruthseeker · September 2012

surf13 wrote: »

Although... Many more delays and Neverwinter might launch at the same time as Next

(joking, for those who can't read between the lines)

Sorry, guess I had a...delayed reaction!

*Ducks*

surf13 · September 2012

*throws nearest object*

What the...! Hey I need my phone!

ambisinisterr · September 2012

I seriously didn't notice any male cleric...I didn't think I read it in that much of a rush to not notice something *that* important.

However the arguments here make perfect sense.
Drizzt is in the favor of the Spider Queen because he causes chaos in drow society. He pleased her by hating her...
Jarlaxle befriend's surface dwellers and elves...but come on what's more chaotic than causing chaos in order to profit?
Danifae, a battle captive which is a virtually unforgivable act of weakness, was chosen as Lolth's Yor'thae because her actions depicted the strongest sense of chaos and inuitive strength.

While Lolth is a matriarchal leader...what would be more chaotic than throwing a male cleric into the mix? The priestesses' heads would be spinning for months at the mere thought. It is a plan befitting of the Spider Queen through and through. I wish I thought it up myself when playing NWN1.

As for the demons and Devil's deal...I'm not sure what to say on that. Honestly it could be as simple as poor editing. How many times has Mithral been spelled Mithril in Mr. Salvatore's works. It's been back and forth over and over depending on the editor.
On the other hand, maybe it is significant...
But in the mean time let's face it Cambians have never really been depicted without some semblance of order. While they may not have the same laws that govern the common realm their own society itself is deep rooted in real laws. It's not an inappropriate step in my eyes.

vindicon · September 2012

Btw, as far as male Lolth clerics are concerned, I'd like to point out this:

Militant Myrlochar, Order of Soul Spiders

The Militant Myrlochar, also known as the Order of Soul Spiders, is an elite military order composed solely of male crusaders and found in the few dark elven cities where Lolth is revered and males are permitted to enter her priesthood. The Militant Myrlochar directly serve the ruling Matron Mothers of the city in which they are based as agents of uncontrolled destruction, tirelessly hunting any creature designated as their quarry or who interferes with their pursuit and wreaking havoc until recalled, which rarely happens, or destroyed, their most common fate.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Lolth

qumi0 · September 2012

As I recall there was a rules considering male clerics of Lolth - after 6-10 level they were sacrificed for the glory of Lolth. Only female clerics were allowed to live further on.

As for succubi - in FR there are many cases of demons/devils/celestials chaging sides. No big deal.

An interesting digression: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Rai-guy

xilix69 · September 2012

Would appear I'm farther out of the loop than I realized concerning WoTC lore.
I stand chastized.

Hence forth, as I seem to be in the minority here concerning them, I will keep my "old school" opinions concerning WoTC's changes to our beloved game to myself.

Does wanting things "the way they used to be" make me old? lol

iamtruthseeker · September 2012

xilix69 wrote: »

Would appear I'm farther out of the loop than I realized concerning WoTC lore.
I stand chastized.

Hence forth, as I seem to be in the minority here concerning them, I will keep my "old school" opinions concerning WoTC's changes to our beloved game to myself.

Does wanting things "the way they used to be" make me old? lol

Nonsense, keep expressing your opinions as D&D Next even states its basis is supporting all editions.

And if Lolth is displeased with your words here, she'll simply eat you.

jedidethfreak823 · September 2012

To be honest, I don't see the complaint - STO has proven that Cryptic isn't going to pay much heed to the source material anyway. You should know this going in.

Latest NeverWinter novel raises concern

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