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Casters VS. Melees:Battle of Ages
bunnyfocker
Member Posts: 35
So, how is Neverwinter going to balance out the casters and melees in this game. The thing is, I'm almost certain that casters will get "mana points" instead of memorization rules. This is the crux of the problem between casters and melees in a MMO DnD game.
The PnP game balances out the uberness of magic users by having them only be able to cast a certain amount of spells per day or severly limit the choice of spells. But in a MMO this just isn't feasible. So, almost all MMOs naturally the casters are far overpowered then their melee counterparts. What will Cryptic do to make melees a vital part of the party rather then have a party of a bunch of casters that will solo every quest and delve until the cows come home.
The PnP game balances out the uberness of magic users by having them only be able to cast a certain amount of spells per day or severly limit the choice of spells. But in a MMO this just isn't feasible. So, almost all MMOs naturally the casters are far overpowered then their melee counterparts. What will Cryptic do to make melees a vital part of the party rather then have a party of a bunch of casters that will solo every quest and delve until the cows come home.
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Casters in MMORPGs are usually far squishier than melee classes and/or far more "mana-hungry". It all balances out, and no, overpowered casters is not a very common occurence. At least not in the games I've played.
And even with the original D&D capabilities of casters, no, they are not powerful enough to be considered overpowered. Even if you gave a sorcerer unlimited casts per day, it doesn't change the fact that if they go and fling their magic to tthe enemy without a couple heavy armored blokes covering them they'll be pierced, slashed, crashed, burned, frozen, electrocuted and blown to the Astral plane before they can cast their second spell.
DDO - THIS is a good case.
Melees have almost no self healing abilities. Practically CC, and actually most of them has lower dmg from casters. And to top of it - instantkills.
Melee : stunning fist as CC may count.... Instant kills - rogue assassinate. with long long cooldown, dps - well.... averagely 100-200 per hit, with crits around 1k - depends on class. I saw barbarians who could get it higher. But mostly crits are landing at 600-700 from what I saw.
Casters: Mass holds, dancing otto sphere, no-save CC like irresistible dance, MASS instantkills and single instant kills. DPS? Well - DOTS, no save, on 3rd stack crist are like 1k-1,5k. And sorcerers? They can make target vulnerable to their source of dmg, and crit for like 6k-8k.
Additionally some of melees need 4 stats, most of casters needs 2 so they can max out con to get really high HP. Maybe not melee like - but theyre not far behind. I mean - some casters are better tanks that ACTUAL tanks (fighters, paladins).
And the most important thing - self healing.
ALL spell casters can self heal. One spell (Heal/reconstruct/negative energy burst)fills at least half of their HP.
Melees? Well... some can use scrolls and paladins have their lay of hands, but u cant use it all the time. They can use pots, but:
1) Free pots heal for 30-40.... When on 2 lvl most melees got 500+ hp at least. Some of them 800+. And monsters hit for aound 60 per hit.
2) Silver flame pots. It hits for a lot, but make u weaker for some time giving -10 to tsats from what I can remember. So not fun
Only thing that limites casters is their mana,
In DDO - well uve got POTS in game, in DDOStore and items with % of chances to give u SP every time sth hits ya.
So really - there is hardly any mana lacking.
So yup - I SAW this problem, and hope here itll be better.
Because in DDO weve got to the points where well...
Caster can self heal CC mobs, then instant kill them all with ONE spell, and then go to boss and take it down quickier than melee.
While melee on any higher difficult wont be able to survive without a lot of work and using expensive resources \OR having a healing nanny running after him...
To add - the :healing nanny: would be probably better off leaving melee to die, and instantkilling mobs and taking down boss alone
Really. Now some quests are "casters only" and I know why its like this.
Why take 5 melees and 1 nanybot, when 1 caster can come and do it alone?
Wow. What a long post I created - Im amazed myself
The melee vs caster imbalance is the single primary reason why I'm probably leaving ddo..
Every class has:
at-will powers - left and right click
encounter powers - powers with a cooldown
daily powers - ultimate powers activated only after filling the d20 dice (mechanics depends on the class)
There is no mana points whatsoever.
Also, meele vs caster/ranged is a bad comparison idea. In Neverwinter classes have specific roles: defender, striker, leader and controller. Every class is a "caster" with lots of spells/skills/abilities to use. That's for many the major advantage of DnD 4 ed.
If anything should be compared than it's these roles. However, this might be hard since every class has a secondary role so for example Runepriest is a leader with some tendencies towards controller and defender.
Anyway, controllers and strikers tend to have less hit points. Defenders and leaders - more.
Depending on the role, the character may do more or less damage. Strikers, such as rangers and rogues and warlocks, do the most damage. Defenders are the next best, but typically focus on aggro control. These include your Fighters, Paladins and Swordmages. Leaders can sometimes match the Defenders, but usually focus on buffs and tactical support. Every Leader gets a frequent-to-use healing ability, and include Clerics, Bards and Warlords. Finally Controllers deal with opponent control, often with AoE or single-target lock-down. They do the least amount of damage, but usually affect more than one target or keep them out of battle long enough for other characters to dispatch. These are your Wizards and Druids.
In this manner, Spellcasters aren't necessarily more or less powerful, based off roles. If they ever allow Warlocks, you'll see some impressive ranged spellcasting damage. This is why I wish they were releasing at least two classes for each role: so that you can really get a good feel and look for each role without pidgeonholing it. It's really a poor example of what 4e has to offer.
Edit: Also, to note, EVERY character in 4e has a limited heal. You can heal a quarter of your health once per battle. This takes place of an attack in a given turn. Leaders can allow you to heal this quarter twice per battle, but without taking away your own actions. So.. useful!
Anyhow, I hope it's all balanced. And the at-will powers, daily powers seems cool, there can be a meter on the bottom of your life bar like in Street Fighter 4 where it fills up with more successful attacks you get etc.
Sounds like fun.
In terms of roles. I hope we can get to a point where roles are critical and parties the standard way to play. I hope it doesn't devolve into DDO wherein parties,especially for TR'd casters, are a giant waste of time since the objective is to XP as fast as possible and get back to cap. Lets all hope this time is different.
6cents
I remember in 2nd, and even 3rd edition, you could have a really awesome caster, but at higher levels, it became REALLY hard to make those spells actually land on your target.
Rogues would dodge out of the way of fireballs very easily, Fighters would make con saves without having to pause for breath, and don't even get me started on Monks.
I mean there was definitely a sweet spot where casters had some power, but once you got past that, it was all about being a physical class.
4th Edition solved many of those problems by making saves both easier to save against, and by making sure that your level 1 wizard could do more than cast Magic Missile one time per day at level 1.
Since we're using quite a few 4th edition mechanics in our combat system, I think you'll find that the balance between the classes is actually pretty well done. Everyone always has something they can bring to the fight, and your level one wizard doesn't become a staff fighter with 1d4 HP after casting his one magic missile that he could prep for the day.
Likewise, Fighters and other physical classes have abilities which feel suitably powerful, and more durability than the casters do.
Hope that helps to set some fears at ease on this topic.
Cheers,
Stormshade
3e:
lvl<10 Melee survives, caster dies
lvl>10 Melee dies, caster survives
4e:
lvl<10 anyone can survive
lvl>10 anyone can die
= SPLAT!!!