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Foundry mission rewards

thegrandnagus2thegrandnagus2 Member Posts: 1 Arc User
edited June 2012 in General Discussion (PC)
One of the main issues that prevents Foundry missions in STO from being a "real" part of the game for most people is the fact that they do not have any significant rewards in comparison with official missions. The reason is fairly obvious; to prevent exploitation. Yet the idea has been suggested that the system could keep track of the average time it takes for people to complete the mission, and then a numeric reward of xp or currency could be awarded based on that average time at the end of the mission. What would you think of such a reward system in NW?
Post edited by thegrandnagus2 on

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    torskaldrtorskaldr Member Posts: 559 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    I would like to see some sort of xp and barter currency reward. Hopefully this could be implemented without exploits. Like you said, metrics could be employed to calculate rewards. Metrics such as time it takes to complete, skills successfully used, puzzles solved, damage done, health healed, etc.
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    vangaldvangald Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 325 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2012
    One of the main issues that prevents Foundry missions in STO from being a "real" part of the game for most people is the fact that they do not have any significant rewards in comparison with official missions. The reason is fairly obvious; to prevent exploitation. Yet the idea has been suggested that the system could keep track of the average time it takes for people to complete the mission, and then a numeric reward of xp or currency could be awarded based on that average time at the end of the mission. What would you think of such a reward system in NW?

    What would stop me from running around in circles in any given mission for half a day just to get massive loot?
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    macabrivsmacabrivs Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 417 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2012
    torskaldr wrote: »
    I would like to see some sort of xp and barter currency reward. Hopefully this could be implemented without exploits. Like you said, metrics could be employed to calculate rewards. Metrics such as time it takes to complete, skills successfully used, puzzles solved, damage done, health healed, etc.

    I dont think healing and dps metrics will work, dealing more dmg dont rly mean u did a best job than other dpsers same applies to healing. Also, people with better gear ussually do more dmg which can became a vicious circle :/
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    valkhadvalkhad Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    If it's player made, it's exploitable. Just the reality of it. There will always be people that will try to make the game easier.

    What would be refreshing is a board of moderators to filter out player-made content that is exploitative, in poor taste, or flat-out poorly designed.
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    shonsu5320shonsu5320 Member Posts: 164 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    Didn't they say that they were exploring ways of rewarding them?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    stormdrag0nstormdrag0n Member Posts: 3,222 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    valkhad wrote: »
    If it's player made, it's exploitable. Just the reality of it. There will always be people that will try to make the game easier.

    Pretty much
    valkhad wrote: »
    What would be refreshing is a board of moderators to filter out player-made content that is exploitative, in poor taste, or flat-out poorly designed.

    That would be ideal actually, but we no longer even have a way to report posts like that on the forums....so I don't look for it in the Foundry.
    Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
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    aralixaralix Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 45
    edited May 2012
    I wouldn't object if, after they've got lots of normal content, they started focusing mainly on creating new items/rewards for dungeons players have already created, could have updates every month with new items or if there are no "named" or special loot, everything is random they could just add loot tables to missions based on monster difficulty and reward xp per monster based on difficulty/repeatition penalties apply
    it would sorta be easy on devs if all they had to do was reward us for playing content we made
    if the rewards are there and the foundry is good, i don't think regular content won't be used as much or even needed after a certain point

    if something like the foundry gives enough creative leeway the constant new dungeons will lure most people simply cause its new and exciting - again as long as the rewards are there
    The truth will EAT you!
    328894f9-2005-4d27-a221-67ec37aa20f9_zpse7d8f150.jpg
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    cybertroll62cybertroll62 Member Posts: 30
    edited May 2012
    valkhad wrote: »
    What would be refreshing is a board of moderators to filter out player-made content that is exploitative, in poor taste, or flat-out poorly designed.

    I mentioned this on another thread. They could do like the Living Greyhawk campaign did, and have a board of selected player/reviewers, approve all player-made content for "Official Status"

    These reviewers would play-test the content like Beta testers do, to try to find exploits, design flaws and anything done in poor taste. These reviewers could then return the player-made content back to the creator with recommended changes for resubmission.

    The best way to do this, is to reward the Beta Testers and any players who has a player-made content approved, with "Foundry Money" to make purchases from the Online Store.

    Once the player-made content is approved, then it would be downloadable for a small fee, and the player who submitted it would continue to get minor royalties for their creation from the Online Store.

    Sure, a very active builder could eventually make more than enough to buy everything the store sells, and not pay a real dollar out of pocket.... But the time they put into making quality content for other players, is worth far more than the reimbursement, for Perfectworld and the player community as a whole.

    Let's say all approved Player-made Dungeons sell for $1.00 each. And from that, the submitter gets $10.00 to the store, plus $.05 per download. Also each of the 4 reviewers egts $10.00 at the store. Perfectworld spend $50.00 for a well crafted and quantified product for their store, and after only 51 downloads, is making money off of it.

    In a game, with potentially tens of thousands of people making purchases for extra content, the revenue stream has a high potential for profit.

    The key, is to set guidelines for submissions, like Hours to Complete (HtC), Level Requirements (LR), Treasure Value Guidelines (TVG), Experience Points Guidelines (EPG)etc. up front, and have them readily available for all potential submitters.

    If someone wants to write a campaign, that exceeds the HtC, TVG or EPG, or has increasing level requirments, then they submit as a series (Think old Module Series like Aerie of the Slavelords (A1-A4) or Drow (D1-D3))
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    gillrmngillrmn Member Posts: 7,800 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    ...
    with "Foundry Money" to make purchases from the Online Store.
    ...

    Instead of using store, if my content is popular, i would like they give me more flexibility in foundry itself. Special privileges like:-

    1- Uploading limited custom content (based on foundry points).

    2- Ability to design a new class for next expansion (e.g. for someone whose content wins competition in that year).

    3- Ability to have a souvenir in game like a dummy item mentioning the name of dungeon or some popular reference.

    4- And finally, the mother of all, having your campaign been mentioned as official/supported story of cannon in 4e.

    I know it sounds like ego-booster than anything useful, but i cant deny that it is what will motivate me to make campaign - my ego!!!
    >|-)
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    fildarfildar Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    They could add a token system based on the difficulty of the dungeon. Give x amount of tokens after completing the mission which can be turned in at a special dealer for your reward. You could even assign encounters a set amount of tokens based on their CR level. It would encourgage people to do the player made content and not require uber loot to be made available inside the dungeon.
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    kamaliiciouskamaliicious Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    fildar wrote: »
    They could add a token system based on the difficulty of the dungeon. Give x amount of tokens after completing the mission which can be turned in at a special dealer for your reward. You could even assign encounters a set amount of tokens based on their CR level. It would encourgage people to do the player made content and not require uber loot to be made available inside the dungeon.
    They could even use a lore appropriate name for these tokens, such as gold pieces. b:laugh
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    kamaliiciouskamaliicious Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    Let's say all approved Player-made Dungeons sell for $1.00 each. And from that, the submitter gets $10.00 to the store, plus $.05 per download. Also each of the 4 reviewers egts $10.00 at the store. Perfectworld spend $50.00 for a well crafted and quantified product for their store, and after only 51 downloads, is making money off of it.
    Since store credit is just giving the player virtual bits, which doesn't cost them anything, PWE spends $0. b:chuckle
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    torskaldrtorskaldr Member Posts: 559 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    They could even use a lore appropriate name for these tokens, such as gold pieces. b:laugh

    How about electrum! Is that even still in the rule set? I haven't bought books since 2e.
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    cavendellcavendell Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    One of the best implementations of reward system for player created content was a game called Smallworlds, it did use a simple metric system to track the average length of time it took players to complete the mission. Longer missions rewarded more than shorter missions and the further the player was away from the average time it took to complete the mission the less their reward is. On top of that the develpers would occassionally attach special rewards to missions they had reviewed personally, sometimes it would just be extra money but it could also be a special item.

    By using average length of time and deviation from there if someone ran around all day on a short mission they'd get next to nothing, if the player finds an exploit to shortcut most of the adventure then they'd get next to nothing. Ontop of this you can add in other metrics as other people have suggested such as killing monsters, skills used etc to add more metrics to track and provide a dynamic reward.

    I wouldn't ever tie in reward to a rating system because that becomes abusable, if a mission is not well done people just won't play it, if a mission is really well done people will come and play it.
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    mzeeusikumzeeusiku Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 38
    edited May 2012
    All of it works for me. I mean, I would like to see both idea implemented. Why not have a buy back program for those ambitious enough to dig in. Of course, those developers should start looking out for their "cushy jobs"! j/k
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    cybertroll62cybertroll62 Member Posts: 30
    edited May 2012
    mzeeusiku wrote: »
    All of it works for me. I mean, I would like to see both idea implemented. Why not have a buy back program for those ambitious enough to dig in. Of course, those developers should start looking out for their "cushy jobs"! j/k

    Honestly, I don't think the Developers would really have time to create enough content wthout such a buy-back (As you call it.) program. After all, there is the next game to be made, and the game after that, etc. Unless the developer can create content that earns the company millions, and do so every year, they will be tasked where they can or be looking for new work.

    An existing world allows only so much revenue from new content, even in a F2P model. Even then, dedicated developers can only do so much, as there are only so many hours in a day. Allowing Community Devs to do alot of the footwork, using standardized toolsets, allows the Company Devs to act more as editors, and thus get more content completed in a shorter time, and for a fraction of the personnel and resource costs a company incurs with in house developers. There is a reason outsourcing is to popular with companies.
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    devoteoftempusdevoteoftempus Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 473 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2012
    I think Foundry loot will be irrelevant when compared to Dungeon Delves loot which will be far superior. Unless of course they would enable players to create Dungeon Delves but I would bet that Dungeon Delve creation is restricted to Cryptic content.
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    iamtruthseekeriamtruthseeker Member, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    cavendell wrote: »
    One of the best implementations of reward system for player created content was a game called Smallworlds, it did use a simple metric system to track the average length of time it took players to complete the mission. Longer missions rewarded more than shorter missions and the further the player was away from the average time it took to complete the mission the less their reward is. On top of that the develpers would occassionally attach special rewards to missions they had reviewed personally, sometimes it would just be extra money but it could also be a special item.

    By using average length of time and deviation from there if someone ran around all day on a short mission they'd get next to nothing, if the player finds an exploit to shortcut most of the adventure then they'd get next to nothing. Ontop of this you can add in other metrics as other people have suggested such as killing monsters, skills used etc to add more metrics to track and provide a dynamic reward.

    I wouldn't ever tie in reward to a rating system because that becomes abusable, if a mission is not well done people just won't play it, if a mission is really well done people will come and play it.

    I also have played STO, including the Foundry system. Besides the mobs' chance of dropping level-specific items, there is no item reward system, and never at the mission's end. Now, if you do the daily "finish 3 player-created modules" you can then get a level-approrriate item or rare currency/crafting dilithium (about 1/8 the amount you are allowed to collect daily for free to play users.)

    The problem is (due to no metrics) everybody uses the "run up to this panel and touch it) 3 missions, this being the ONLY foundry item-reward at end-of-mission option (and most pople take the dil anyway since it's 1/8 of what they can get a day.)


    Having the above metrics system means not only can we implement item-appropriate rewards at foundry-mission endings (it's just too exploitable for specific items to be handed out, but a proper foundry system can limit those items to things like slotted items such as head, feet, consumables, wonderous items, etc.) but we can also have authors use minimum quest requirments in their foundry that will list the "level" of reward. So if they just "run to the town crier," they can only get consumables, if they "solve a puzzle after talking to 3 other NPC's," they get a multiple-charged item, but if they do multiple encounters in a foundry quest, they then can get the level-appropriate item in the quest range (Foundries can be restricted to level x and higher quests BTW.) This is the power of gateway metrics!

    And while Electrum will return in D&D Next (hope that doesn't break any NDA but I doubt it) a much better "tier 2" material that can be used both for exchange and crafting/rituals would be residuum, used in rituals, and would work great if used as a component for said "crafting" rituals. This component is also received when you deconstruct magic items at 1/5 the item's value (which can be adapted to however the MMO game works.) I feel the Dilithium (Dil) system works very well in STO, including the cost for uiploading the crafted mod/tipping the author, and could easily be done with the tier 2 currency being "residuum." IMHO, this could be a "reward amount" based on the foundry level and above metric completion, capped in a similar way how much you can "refine daily" in STO.

    Or skip how much you can get daily if another metric is used to not exploit the buying/crafting powerful items w it (such as making said items bound but only an example.)


    Finally, I fully support GM's "augmenting" the rewards offered if a game is done well by their standards, and to have the rewards be a range not always x or y.


    So, to recap, use Small Worlds metrics, use residuum as a tier 2 curency for buying/crafting that can be used as an end-game reward option, and allow company DM's to add additional rewards on a sliding scale of their choosing.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    gillrmngillrmn Member Posts: 7,800 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    We can also have campaign specific items? Like if I make 5 maps and mark them to be a part of single campaign, items looted from campaign would be useable only for those 5 maps.

    Advantages(?):-

    -- No one has to worry about overpowered rewards. They are limited only to a specific campaign.

    -- These items will occupy inventory, would be non-tradeable. This will limit hoarding of items from foundry missions.

    -- Would allow the DM to have more flexibility in story (e.g.) by giving orc slayer with +9 against orcs in a mission where you and 2 others go on a war with orcs killings thousands of them.
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    rgbdreamerrgbdreamer Member, Cryptic Developers Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    There are some tricky cases using a measured duration. For example, in STO, there are a lot of missions that are almost entirely dialog. If most players read the dialog, then the average play time might be 30 minutes, but an exploitative player might click through as fast as possible and take less than a minute.

    Any ideas for good ways to prevent that kind of exploitation?
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    kalizaarkalizaar Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    rgbdreamer wrote: »
    There are some tricky cases using a measured duration. For example, in STO, there are a lot of missions that are almost entirely dialog. If most players read the dialog, then the average play time might be 30 minutes, but an exploitative player might click through as fast as possible and take less than a minute.

    Any ideas for good ways to prevent that kind of exploitation?

    That's a good point. Why couldn't a user create an adventure that is very heavily story based with little to no action involved. Obviously not everybody's cup of tea, but I know some would enjoy a good story. How could they award the player for doing the story though?

    You can't just give everyone X amount of xp and gold for finishing it because you'll have someone that figures out they can go afk and have their character do the mission while they're at work or something. Unless they made rewards have diminishing returns maybe for doing the same adventure multiple times or within a certain time frame from re-entering the same adventure.

    And even if they did that would it be time based? If so then what would stop someone from making an "adventure" that takes 3 hours of just staring at the screen. Would that adventure yield a large reward? How would the reward differ between a 5 minute "story" and a 30 minute "story"?

    I'd definitely like for Foundry to offer decent rewards but man will it require some good, complex logic and metrics to avoid exploitation.
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    gillrmngillrmn Member Posts: 7,800 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    kalizaar wrote: »
    ...
    Would that adventure yield a large reward? How would the reward differ between a 5 minute "story" and a 30 minute "story"?
    ...

    Some people don't play the game for amount of XP/min, but amount of fun. If I am making any foundry missions, I would definitely make them for latter kind.
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    criticalwitcriticalwit Member Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    I really hope the foundry gives good rewards. STO foundry missions were often some of the most ingenius moments of gameplay I've experience in an MMO, and I bet D&D fans will make some incredible quests.
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