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Whisperknife, why it's bad and how to fix it

Let's be honest here. Whisperknife is trash in Single Target. It's not an exaggeration, it's a fact. Even when playing most optimally I could, the difference was massive. Whisperknife doesn't even have 70% of Assassin's potential, the only times it shone so far was because of bugs.

And before anyone says "but whisperknife is very good in AoE, maybe that's where it's meant to be used?"

Well then, I say. Explain this:

This is just a Single Target damage source. Sure, you can use it on one enemy when there's mobs around, but which enemy save for a few irrelevant bosses that do spawn adds is worth using this on?

And this:

There's no use for such increases in AoE, enemies usually die in less than 5 seconds.

Aaaand this:

VP has only 200 magnitude as AoE while Shadowy's radius is too small compared to other choices so having decent magnitude if you use it in middle of a pack of mobs doesn't save it. Most of the time the area coverage of Blade Flurry, Smoke Bomb, Path of the Blade and Blitz is better by far. So realistically you are only using 1 paragon encounter for AoE. And don't start me on Killing Storm. This daily only works thanks to a bugged class feature allowing multiple procs of the mentioned class feature while Lurker's Assault is even worse daily than bard's Inspiration which is only useful again because of a bug that allows a player to remain in stealth while casting Blade Flurry thanks to a Feat this time.

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Now, let's get to the issues in Single Target.
1. Low magnitudes, high cooldowns, no other damage upkeep sources.
It might be a ranged class that can get Combat Advantage for free... but by no means is it a reason for gutting it out of damage. At-wills are utter trash for single target, as many were saying the only thing disheartening in Disheartening Strike is its damage. The initial magnitude is... just pathetic. 40 magnitude for a 0.9s cast time at-will with a non-stacking DoT that only refreshes its duration on another hit. And the DoT's magnitude is 75... total. Yes, if you'd let the 75 magnitude DoT reach its full duration, it does 75 magnitude total, not 75 magnitude every 2s for 10s.

The only viable daily would be Hateful Knives which provides 2000 magnitude + 200 magnitude - that can not critically strike - with a class feat.

Encounters:
VP: 200+715 magnitude, 8.4s cooldown at 18% recharge speed,
Impact shot, 585 magnitude, same cooldown,
Shadow Strike, 715 magnitude, 11.8s cooldown

Let's compare those with a fighter.
Encounters:
Bull Charge: 820 magnitude (using a class feature), 10.2s cooldown at 17% recharge speed
Anvil of Doom: 880/1260 magnitude, 15.3/11.9s cooldown (enhanced improves both magnitude and cooldown and is very easy to upkeep)
Commander's Strike: 780 magnitude, 15.3s cooldown

At-will Heavy Slash is a 175 magnitude with 0.7s cast time and 5% increase in damage,
Daily Mow Down has a base magnitude of 2100 and can be enhanced to do 2500 magnitude when affected by physical vulnerability source,

A fighter has easily 14340 of magnitude per minute with encounters alone while WK, counting in feat that reduces cooldowns by 2s on entering stealth, has only about 13000 magnitude *if* they don't get hit by DoTs

Then they get easily outclassed with at-will damage upkeep. Even bursts aren't their best because for a burst to be good, their own magnitudes should be. And a total of 7215 daily + mount + encounter magnitude + around 595 magnitude from at-wills in a timeframe of 10s is just not enough to beat 8360 encounter + daily + mount power + around 1225 at-will damage in exact same time frame of 10 seconds.

Shadow of Demise would help somewhat except fighter also gets more sources of damage and stats that are easier to upkeep. Current best setup includes 10% critical strike from a class feature, 10% combat advantage from full stamina, 20% damage from vengeance and 5% from at-will and debuffs enemy by 10% with commander's strike.

Now, what does rogue Whisperknife get?
2% combat advantage for free, 5% debuff from Shadow Strike, 5% debuff from disheartening strike, 20% from stealthed hits or 5% to ranged with gutterborn, 7.5% to ranged powers when within 20', 10% cunning ambusher after leaving stealth

While rogue gets around same damage due to one encounter being forced to be cast out of stealth, a fighter gets 18% more stats in total. And in a long run the fighter will be definitely better here.

2. Stealth generation/loss.
I have been saying that for a long time Master of Shadows should be base kit for rogue as even Assassin can struggle to generate stealth if enough DoTs fly around. Whisperknife's stealth generation is way beyond bad. Every hit counts. What I gave above was in absolutely best scenario where you don't get hit so you can actually get into stealth.

Without being able to use stealth rogue loses 10% buff from Cunning Ambusher, 1-10% if someone did pick Last Moments (Shady Preparations is much better in my opinion when combined with Dark Reimbursement and Return to Shadows, otherwise there is just not enough stealth generation. One With The Shadows is way too inconsistent while Hidden Attacks is straight up useless given most rogues want out of stealth ASAP to restart regeneration process and get Cunning Ambusher).

In Crown of Keldegonn (Master) I just wasn't able to generate stealth fast enough even with Tenacious Concealment to counter the DoT when Supports were spawned, therefore losing most of my class's abilities. The longest it took me to regenerate stealth was around 25 seconds - twice as long as is generated because I was constantly losing it in small chips after usage.

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Finally, let's get to fixes after seeing the issues:

1. Make Master of Shadows base kit. I know it creates the issue of a missing feature from Assassin but I'd already have a replacement that is straight to the point:

When your target is struck by an encounter power with a control effect and they are control immune, they take bonus 300 magnitude damage.

This would give Dazing Strike actual use since it has only 300 magnitude but low cooldown (seriously, no one uses it even for AoE) and make Deft Strike on par with other encounters in Assassin's repertoire and make a viable replacement for Lashing Blade which has a bonus effect that does not work once the character can achieve 90% Critical Severity,

2. Increase Shadow Strike debuff to 10%, yes it is to both projectile and physical - but Commanding Shot from ranger is 10% debuff overall.

3 Make Disheartening Strike actually good. I have 2 propositions for this:
- Increase initial magnitude to 120 and leave DoT at 75 magnitude but actually dealing 75 magnitude every 2 seconds,
- Increase DoT magnitude to 100 and let it stack up to 3 times while the debuff remains non-stacking.

4. Increase Impact Shot magnitude to 700.

These fixes are simple but important, I say that as a long time fan of the gameplay style of Whisperknife.

Comments

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    rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 926 Arc User
    WK does not work because when M16 split the paragons, assassin got things that fit together and WK got the incoherent rest regardless if it makes sense.

    About the suggested solutions:
    1. Increased stealth regeneration: definitely. (the substitution is however a bit wonky - Smokebomb)
    2. whatever =)
    3. a good one
    4. I guess? But frankly, WK benefits more from drop in cooldowns than increase of magnitudes. (the cooldowns are one of the reason why you can no longer regenerate stealth fast enough)

    ...but tbh, I gave up WK a long time ago as it was annoying to deal with. For example stealthed VP always complained about not being able to target ally (like, literally a complaining message - while the targeting system was the only one that ever wanted to force the power to do so)... and tended to drop you through the map if there was otherwise non-existent gap between you and the target (like, if you targeted the baby in the CoDG from an angle).

    M16 WK has never been play-tested, that is the whole problem.
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    dracory1#6808 dracory1 Member Posts: 128 Arc User
    rikitaki said:

    WK does not work because when M16 split the paragons, assassin got things that fit together and WK got the incoherent rest regardless if it makes sense.

    About the suggested solutions:
    1. Increased stealth regeneration: definitely. (the substitution is however a bit wonky - Smokebomb)
    2. whatever =)
    3. a good one
    4. I guess? But frankly, WK benefits more from drop in cooldowns than increase of magnitudes. (the cooldowns are one of the reason why you can no longer regenerate stealth fast enough)

    ...but tbh, I gave up WK a long time ago as it was annoying to deal with. For example stealthed VP always complained about not being able to target ally (like, literally a complaining message - while the targeting system was the only one that ever wanted to force the power to do so)... and tended to drop you through the map if there was otherwise non-existent gap between you and the target (like, if you targeted the baby in the CoDG from an angle).

    M16 WK has never been play-tested, that is the whole problem.

    The incoherent rest you talk about works pretty well together actually, but is again held back by low magnitudes and bad class mechanic - which is stealth generation.

    I have played WK in every content so far save for master Tiamat... because that is way too much of a pain to try. 3 out of 5 feats are supposed to ease up getting stealth back, but that is not enough when DoTs get involved.

    Number 1 is up for discussion always, it's just my suggestion which I find good enough to bump up Rogue's own damage while keeping it in line with other classes post BoA nerf,

    In case of Number 2 I should have added "and make Disheartening Strike debuff only effective for the user, Skullcracker style",

    Because WK has not low enough cooldowns (even with DHearts set), Number 4 would simply improve upkeep damage with Shadow of Demise. Clerics get even better encounters that are much more spammable but have half as many PoDs (though for now it's debatable with how long it takes to get back into stealth when trials force taking damage).
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    rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 926 Arc User
    edited September 2022

    The incoherent rest you talk about works pretty well together actually, but is again held back by low magnitudes and bad class mechanic - which is stealth generation.

    I have played WK in every content so far save for master Tiamat... because that is way too much of a pain to try. 3 out of 5 feats are supposed to ease up getting stealth back, but that is not enough when DoTs get involved.

    Let me clarify it a little bit.
    M16 removed many combinations by splitting all classes into two separate paths. Rogue did not end up that bad, but it still lost a lot.
    Previously, if you had a problem to solo some content, you could for example slot in a class feature that gave you 5 sec of CA and some resist after leaving stealth + another one that gave you bonus damage while in CA. In the new system, one paragon got the additional CA, the other the additional damage. In practice, assassin got a better draw because it can now easily pile up bonuses to deal with trash, while WK got a suddenly less effective class feature. Similar minor details add together so much that WK needs additional 20% IL to freely run on a map while still paying attention to stealth and cooldowns.
    I do not want to say one paragon should get a boost or the other a nerf, but when good combos got split into two parts, one side draw a short stick here.

    If we speak about the group play, not much has changed - when you have an assassin, there is no difference if you have a phd or are actually brain dead. On the other hand, for WK you have to know what you are doing - and on top of that you have to have a calm and peaceful place to perform well.
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