Please bring PVP back ! Simple Solution

fuxion · August 2022

This is such a fantastic game and still has one of the best combat systems out there and it will be a shame to not put it to good use with a PVP system.

There's so many players that loved this game because of PVP when it was still active

Neverwinter did go through a lot of changes in the last few years and it was definitely necessary.

I believe the game is really in a great place at the moment and a resurrection to the PVP system would really be absolutely incredible and would bring so many players back and definitely some new as well.

can we not have a mod dedicated to PVP so that it get the attention and revamp it deserves please ?

Maybe 4 tiered queue system would cater for new players as most are not BIS or maxed out but have better rewards the higher the Tier would make it really attractive to all and especially new players

Just restrict Item Level at the different tiers so that a player cannot equip any gear or enchantments during & after queuing for a match that would increase his Item Level past the tier he queued for. Something simple as that would be ideal.

Tier 1 - Max 45K Item lvl
Tier 2 - Max 55K Item lvl
Tier 3 - Max 65k Item lvl
Tier 4 - No Limit Item lvl

I really hope that Neverwinter PVP can come alive again as it was definitely the most fun for me since a played this game just because one is playing against real players and that keeps it interesting where some pve content can become abit mundane after a while and abit of a change up with some pvp is like therapy and refreshing

I'm convinced i am speaking for a lot of players that used to be part of the fun and i those who asked me in the game recently what happened to PVP and that they would love to se it active again.

I am not sure if this attempt to bring pvp back will help but I typed this out right in the belief that it maybe could.

fritz · August 2022

Ideally item level tiers are not required because the ELO system handles that you only get paired with and against people your skill (and ilvl). BUT since the PVP population is low to non-existent the ELO never worked its magic in a way that was acceptable. We had tons of threads and feedback but in the end we might have to accept that PVP is a mode this game features but will never be able to fully support.

The main culprit for me is balancing. Like if your class gets the short end of the stick in a balancing pass you're very likely to suffer for multiple years. Just ask CWs right now. But this is not a recent development. It has been this way since forever. This simply doesn't work for PVP. If there's a game-breaking bug (or class imbalance) you can't wait for months, let alone years. And this happens frequently.

I mean add rewards, a different queue system, but without a dedicated team that works balancing full-time you won't get anywhere.

fuxion · August 2022

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fuxion · August 2022

fritz#8093 said:
Ideally item level tiers are not required because the ELO system handles that you only get paired with and against people your skill (and ilvl). BUT since the PVP population is low to non-existent the ELO never worked its magic in a way that was acceptable. We had tons of threads and feedback but in the end we might have to accept that PVP is a mode this game features but will never be able to fully support.

The main culprit for me is balancing. Like if your class gets the short end of the stick in a balancing pass you're very likely to suffer for multiple years. Just ask CWs right now. But this is not a recent development. It has been this way since forever. This simply doesn't work for PVP. If there's a game-breaking bug (or class imbalance) you can't wait for months, let alone years. And this happens frequently.

I mean add rewards, a different queue system, but without a dedicated team that works balancing full-time you won't get anywhere.

Class balancing was a major issue in the past and will never be perfect we all accept that.

Its alot better now that's for sure but yes will never be perfect.

This is not the request here.

It is creating a fun environment for players who love PVP

The suggestion/solution is just to TRY attract more players

PVP shouldn't be a farming/grinding exercise at all

Some rewards will be great and something like guild vs guild (5v5) for stronghold rewards will create healthy fun competition and rivalry

fritz · August 2022

fuxion#7775 said:

Class balancing was a major issue in the past and will never be perfect we all accept that.

Its alot better now that's for sure but yes will never be perfect.

This is not the request here.

It is creating a fun environment for players who love PVP

The suggestion/solution is just to TRY attract more players

PVP shouldn't be a farming/grinding exercise at all

Some rewards will be great and something like guild vs guild (5v5) for stronghold rewards will create healthy fun competition and rivalry

I mean I don't disagree that PVP should have a place in the game, I just don't see it looking at the resources the devs have to work with. Ideally PVP should live within its own bubble with specific gear, mounts, companions etc. that are only usable or viable in PVP and can also only be obtained by playing PVP. That is a massive amount of extra work for the devs because just like PVE you need to balance, design, and maintain this extra line of gear. For players this is also inconvenient since you might need two fully different loadouts for PVE and PVP.

I guess you could add some RADs to the queues or PVP-only novelty and skins, but other than that I'm strictly against handing out meaningful rewards unless you make sure that skill is the only relevant variable.

masteryoda · August 2022

fritz#8093 said:

fuxion#7775 said:

Class balancing was a major issue in the past and will never be perfect we all accept that.

Its alot better now that's for sure but yes will never be perfect.

This is not the request here.

It is creating a fun environment for players who love PVP

The suggestion/solution is just to TRY attract more players

PVP shouldn't be a farming/grinding exercise at all

Some rewards will be great and something like guild vs guild (5v5) for stronghold rewards will create healthy fun competition and rivalry

I mean I don't disagree that PVP should have a place in the game, I just don't see it looking at the resources the devs have to work with. Ideally PVP should live within its own bubble with specific gear, mounts, companions etc. that are only usable or viable in PVP and can also only be obtained by playing PVP. That is a massive amount of extra work for the devs because just like PVE you need to balance, design, and maintain this extra line of gear. For players this is also inconvenient since you might need two fully different loadouts for PVE and PVP.

I guess you could add some RADs to the queues or PVP-only novelty and skins, but other than that I'm strictly against handing out meaningful rewards unless you make sure that skill is the only relevant variable.

That is the crux of the situation exactly, PVP doesn't survive in games that 1 it isn't the main feature of the game or 2 doesn't have a dedicated team to focus on keeping it balanced. And yes PVP needs to be in its own bubble as the above comment stats otherwise it will quickly become unfairly unbalanced. But furthermore balance in this game is hard to find to be honest and with class reworks on the horizon we should wait till that is completed before worrying with PVP.

trgluestickz · August 2022

While there certainly are steps Cryptic could take to improve the PVP situation, I'm not sure splitting PVP into that many tiers is a good idea. If the devs did do an entire mod around PVP, that would help them change all the other variables needed to make that many tiers actually pop. That said, they are very unlikely to designate an entire mod to PVP so its probably not a realistic request.

Some things that definitely would help and would be doable include:

- Turning the leaderboard back on.

- Updating matchmaking to recognize the healer role & split healers evenly whenever possible.

- Updating solo que to also allow duo queuing. So you can either que alone or with 1 friend.

- Introduce infinitely repeatable milestone rewards for PVP that can be sold on the AH, use the PVP campaign to do this. Make sure these rewards reward behavior that is actually beneficial to the team & make sure to include some tasks that healers are able to do. Also make sure the rewards are tied to your account & avoid per character rewards.

- Remove most or all gear and other powercreep stuff from PVP, make sure mount combat powers are among the things that get completely removed from PVP.

- Remove kick voting from PVP completely.

trgluestickz · August 2022

To be honest, Cryptic isn't going to lift a finger to help PVP anytime soon @fuxion#7775

Your best bet at improving the PVP situation is to gather together at least 2 other active passionate PVPers and split the community workload between the 3 of you, for hosting PVP matches and other community upkeep jobs. I cannot be one of those 3 players, I quit the game several months ago & will not come back.

You will need to recruit new PVPers regularly via chat advertising for your PVP discord & the ingame chat channel.

And you will need to try to provide as many enjoyable PVP matches as possible per week. Best case scenario is you get the community to a point where PVP matches happen of their own accord again instead of them always having to be pre-scheduled in advance.

An obstacle you will face right now is that the PVP community isn't currently growing enough to support more than 3-4 PVP events per week, because its always the same people for the most part showing up to each of the events and they won't be able to attend more days than that most likely.
To fix this, you need to grow the community, that is necessary for everything you seem to want to do. Pretty much all innovative ideas I've heard proposed by you and other people require more people playing in order to work.

The "build it and they will come" approach only works if enough variables are changed to generate widespread excitement and get people to dive right in and start playing. This requires Cryptic to go the extra mile and make something amazing, which they will never do.
Most of the time, a more patient and gradual baby steps approach is all that is possible for Cryptic to do. and this is also the growth pattern the community is stuck with.

trgluestickz · August 2022

@fritz#8093

A common misconception is that Cryptic's finite resources are something that PVE/PVP are competing with eachother for. And that one must lose some of its resources in order for the other to get anything. This isn't actually how it works, instead Cryptic usually allocates resources towards what currently has high participation numbers, the higherups don't want to take unnecessary risks. They actually could allocate more resources to improve PVP without drawing resources away from PVE. When the higherups believe that something is worth investing in, they allocate whatever is necessary towards it, its not a fixed pool that PVE/PVP play tug of war with.

Cryptic & its Devs from what I understand take the heat for a lot of the decisions their parent company makes, which is still Perfect World, the Embracer/Gearbox deal purchased Perfect World.

masteryoda · August 2022

trgluestickz said:
@masteryoda#6623

A common misconception is that Cryptic's finite resources are something that PVE/PVP are competing with eachother for. And that one must lose some of its resources in order for the other to get anything. This isn't actually how it works, instead Cryptic usually allocates resources towards what currently has high participation numbers, the higherups don't want to take unnecessary risks. They actually could allocate more resources to improve PVP without drawing resources away from PVE. When the higherups believe that something is worth investing in, they allocate whatever is necessary towards it, its not a fixed pool that PVE/PVP play tug of war with.

Cryptic & its Devs from what I understand take the heat for a lot of the decisions their parent company makes, which is still Perfect World, the Embracer/Gearbox deal purchased Perfect World.

Never implied that there needs to be a tug of war, actually your doing that with your own comment, my point is PvP is not pushed as a main feature nor does there seem to a dedicated team to keep it balanced. But it doesn't matter it will be a long time before cryptic looks into pvp again.

trgluestickz · August 2022

masteryoda#6623 said:

trgluestickz said:
@masteryoda#6623

A common misconception is that Cryptic's finite resources are something that PVE/PVP are competing with eachother for. And that one must lose some of its resources in order for the other to get anything. This isn't actually how it works, instead Cryptic usually allocates resources towards what currently has high participation numbers, the higherups don't want to take unnecessary risks. They actually could allocate more resources to improve PVP without drawing resources away from PVE. When the higherups believe that something is worth investing in, they allocate whatever is necessary towards it, its not a fixed pool that PVE/PVP play tug of war with.

Cryptic & its Devs from what I understand take the heat for a lot of the decisions their parent company makes, which is still Perfect World, the Embracer/Gearbox deal purchased Perfect World.
Never implied that there needs to be a tug of war, actually your doing that with your own comment, my point is PvP is not pushed as a main feature nor does there seem to a dedicated team to keep it balanced. But it doesn't matter it will be a long time before cryptic looks into pvp again.

I messed up on who I addressed, I should have addressed @fritz#8093, I got your comments mixed up with his. I will fix that.

trgluestickz · August 2022

I figured I'd also bring up one of the specific variables that your IL tiers would need addressed in order to work, @fuxion#7775. As you pointed out, your idea would need a module dedicated to PVP in order to work.

When I was still playing the game, which wasn't that long ago, class imbalance was also affecting how strong certain classes are at various item levels.
Healers for example were the cheapest things to make due to the 40k item level upscaling present in PVP, the lack of healing depression, and the soulforged enchantment. Back during seasons and through all of mod 21, nearly naked clerics and paladins were viable.
Some DPS classes required a lot more gear than others to be good too.
in mod 20 and 21, knowledgeable players were able to make undergeared fighter and wizard builds that could go toe to toe with nearly maxed out players on other classes. WK rogues also were cheap to make in mod 22.
There were also issues with item level bloating and companion item level sources where you actually could have too much item level, for a while there, 60k IL was pretty weak. This might still be the case, I'm having trouble remembering if this changed or not.
These low IL builds still required a few specific high end items to work well, such as journals and a high mount bolster. For DPS classes, the useful point was around 29k and above in mod 20 and mod 21, any DPS players significantly below that mark were basically walking automatic losses. Clerics and paladins could get away with 18k.

If Cryptic ever does decide to work on PVP again, they are very likely to outright remove all gear/PVE stuff from PVP, they have mentioned this idea several times in recent years and this is probably the only way forwards at this late stage in this game's lifespan. They also tried to sell the PVP community on an idea similar to chicken PVP a few years ago, which didn't go over well. The gear/other PVE stuff getting removed part is good, the rest of the permanent chicken PVP idea needs to be tossed out.

If Cryptic for whatever reason changes its mind about removing gear from PVP, then another small thing they could do to help PVP is to give PVP a minimum item level requirement. The restriction would be a very lenient one that removes characters that are below the point where they are able to be useful. If it was still mod 21, I would have suggested 29k, but the number will have changed since then. I played some of mod 22 but wasn't around long enough to figure out what the new number was.
Doing this could either reduce the PVP population by a small amount or it could actually increase the population significantly, its a tossup which outcome we would get.

fritz · August 2022

trgluestickz said:
@fritz#8093

A common misconception is that Cryptic's finite resources are something that PVE/PVP are competing with eachother for. And that one must lose some of its resources in order for the other to get anything. This isn't actually how it works, instead Cryptic usually allocates resources towards what currently has high participation numbers, the higherups don't want to take unnecessary risks. They actually could allocate more resources to improve PVP without drawing resources away from PVE. When the higherups believe that something is worth investing in, they allocate whatever is necessary towards it, its not a fixed pool that PVE/PVP play tug of war with.

Cryptic & its Devs from what I understand take the heat for a lot of the decisions their parent company makes, which is still Perfect World, the Embracer/Gearbox deal purchased Perfect World.

Not sure I agree with your logic because it's not like Cryptic brings in additional devs even if they somehow felt like PVP needs a bit more attention. The past has shown that there are always trade-offs. If we get a module full of A then there will be less B. The devs themselves have repeatedly talked about how difficult it is to manage their time vs. the features they'd like to see implemented.

PVE vs. PVP is definitely not exclusive but in the end I agree it comes down to the issue that maintaining the game mode currently does not make tons of sense based on its activity. But then even if you say well there has to be a somewhat viable game mode for players to participate and compete in, cool. History has shown though that the amount of gamebreaking bugs and balancing issues will soon lead us to the same state we're currently in.

I myself wished the devs (whether that be publisher, studio or the personnel itself) would have been more courageous. The Foundry, Gateway, and also PVP were great features that all got abandoned over time because of lacking resources. The Gateway was bot-heaven and they weren't willing to put the necessary effort in. Foundry got too complicated to maintain due to technical reasons, and PVP has been a step-child ever since. There are other examples of niche features that could have made Neverwinter more than just one of many.

On the other hand, if they had the resources, you would think they would have had an easier path to maintaining features that are not too profitable, but add to the depth and variety of the game. I often compare this to online media. They have to push out dozens of clickbait articles per day to be able to do one piece of well-researched opinion / content. That's just how it works. But Cryptic, be it because they just get by or because of a greedy publisher, seems to be stuck with just doing clickbait content and never get to the stage where they can do that one cool feature on top of it.

trgluestickz · August 2022

fritz#8093 said:

trgluestickz said:
@fritz#8093

A common misconception is that Cryptic's finite resources are something that PVE/PVP are competing with eachother for. And that one must lose some of its resources in order for the other to get anything. This isn't actually how it works, instead Cryptic usually allocates resources towards what currently has high participation numbers, the higherups don't want to take unnecessary risks. They actually could allocate more resources to improve PVP without drawing resources away from PVE. When the higherups believe that something is worth investing in, they allocate whatever is necessary towards it, its not a fixed pool that PVE/PVP play tug of war with.

Cryptic & its Devs from what I understand take the heat for a lot of the decisions their parent company makes, which is still Perfect World, the Embracer/Gearbox deal purchased Perfect World.
Not sure I agree with your logic because it's not like Cryptic brings in additional devs even if they somehow felt like PVP needs a bit more attention. The past has shown that there are always trade-offs. If we get a module full of A then there will be less B. The devs themselves have repeatedly talked about how difficult it is to manage their time vs. the features they'd like to see implemented.

PVE vs. PVP is definitely not exclusive but in the end I agree it comes down to the issue that maintaining the game mode currently does not make tons of sense based on its activity. But then even if you say well there has to be a somewhat viable game mode for players to participate and compete in, cool. History has shown though that the amount of gamebreaking bugs and balancing issues will soon lead us to the same state we're currently in.

I myself wished the devs (whether that be publisher, studio or the personnel itself) would have been more courageous. The Foundry, Gateway, and also PVP were great features that all got abandoned over time because of lacking resources. The Gateway was bot-heaven and they weren't willing to put the necessary effort in. Foundry got too complicated to maintain due to technical reasons, and PVP has been a step-child ever since. There are other examples of niche features that could have made Neverwinter more than just one of many.

On the other hand, if they had the resources, you would think they would have had an easier path to maintaining features that are not too profitable, but add to the depth and variety of the game. I often compare this to online media. They have to push out dozens of clickbait articles per day to be able to do one piece of well-researched opinion / content. That's just how it works. But Cryptic, be it because they just get by or because of a greedy publisher, seems to be stuck with just doing clickbait content and never get to the stage where they can do that one cool feature on top of it.

Neverwinter isn't Cryptic/Perfect World's only game is what I'm getting at. Many devs at their disposal are allocated to their other games or making new games instead of neverwinter. If the company did decide PVP was a worthwhile investment, they would allocate more resources towards Neverwinter, Devs ARE a resource.
If PVE stopped having good participation numbers and making good money, and PVP was predicted to be a good investment this would be the scenario where PVE could lose resources to PVP. Either that or Neverwinter would get shut down.
They try to get away with spending as little as possible to keep Neverwinter operational as things currently stand, & Neverwinter still brings in a lot of money.
Cryptic is also doing surprisingly well, the low funding to games and skeleton crews of devs is more of a greed thing that probably is Perfect World's doing more than Cryptic's.
I don't know much about Embracer/Gearbox, but impression I have is they are pretty hands off and are mostly just the sugar daddy for funding Cryptic. & that funding is more likely to go towards new games than old ones like Neverwinter.
Neverwinter is more of a low effort cashcow that will get milked until it dies.

Its not completely impossible for PVE to lose resources to PVP, but given how little has gone into PVP over the years and how little it takes to improve the current situation, whatever they could lose in resources will be negligible to non-existent.
Putting significant resources into PVP isn't going to take anything significant out of PVE because they will want to maintain PVE since that is where their money already comes from.

greywynd · August 2022

Fighting in the road in the Pass doesn't work anymore?

fuxion · August 2022

Please just bring back PVP ... please !

stark760 · August 2022

Other games give you a vanilla PVP toon, instead of what you've grinded in PVE. That would be better than the pvp we have now, and the imbalance it brings, causing 1 que struggling to pop.

walidhans · August 2022

I think PVP is now in a balanced status, alot more than in the past. As an exp. PVP player you adapt ur build and stats to current module and thats it, every class can be strong if u master it coreectly. Just bring some cool rewards for playing PVP and maybe the leaderboards with ranking, so people can do it to earn something, this sholud fix at least the stucking qeue and bring more people instantly to PVP. The combat system on NW i so unique. Please bring PVP backkkk,

stark760 · September 2022

walidhans said:
I think PVP is now in a balanced status, alot more than in the past. As an exp. PVP player you adapt ur build and stats to current module and thats it, every class can be strong if u master it coreectly. Just bring some cool rewards for playing PVP and maybe the leaderboards with ranking, so people can do it to earn something, this sholud fix at least the stucking qeue and bring more people instantly to PVP. The combat system on NW i so unique. Please bring PVP backkkk,

Eliminate mount powers in PVP, that would be huge first step. AS I recall, PVP was not in great place, but did have a leaderboard after/during mod 17? Then tunnel vision was introduced. Hard to worry about a build, when someones mount can 1 shot if they choose you.

walidhans · January 2023

> @stark760 said:
> Eliminate mount powers in PVP, that would be huge first step. AS I recall, PVP was not in great place, but did have a leaderboard after/during mod 17? Then tunnel vision was introduced. Hard to worry about a build, when someones mount can 1 shot if they choose you.

Like I said it is in a balanced status right now, you just need to adapt your build to the current situation, as everyone is using Tunnelvision, I adapted , I don't wanna be arrogant but I survive 3 Tunnelvisons with my build and have at the same time good dps. Only bring back leaderboards and some rewards to motivate people to play it.

fuxion · December 2023

Remove mount powers is definitely a must (one shot toad kills any chance of pure combat)
if anything that should be done.

PVP should reward skill and strategy not gear or overpowered one shot mount power kills.

Please bring back PVP

Please bring PVP back ! Simple Solution

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